Fairbanks City Council rejects three-year contract for firefighters
Published Tuesday, May 20, 2008
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Stumble It!The Fairbanks City Council rejected a proposed three-year contract Monday for city firefighters, who have been working under an expired labor deal since 2005.
The 2-3 vote raises the prospect of arbitration as the city and union seek a new deal. It also opens the door for the union to carry legal complaints over controversial 2003 budget cuts to Alaska Supreme Court, a disagreement Fairbanks Firefighters Association president Dominic Lozano estimated carries the potential of a $1.5 million hit to the city.
Lozano said he was surprised and disappointed by Monday’s vote.
“I think (the council) made a large mistake not to vote this thing up and be done with it,” he said.
The firefighters’ union is the last of four in the city to strike a new labor deal following the budget cuts, which reduced benefits for workers. The other unions cover police, public works employees and city hall workers.
The firefighters’ deal, had it been approved by the city and union, would have given firefighters vacation hours under a disappearing “longevity leave” program at the city. It also would have increased minimum on-duty staffing levels, from nine to 10 workers on duty at any given time.
The measure drew support from council members John Eberhart and Tonya Brown. It was opposed by Lloyd Hilling, Chad Roberts and Vivian Stiver, who have said they want to avoid increasing costs at a time of economic uncertainty for a community facing rising energy prices.
“I’m no weatherman, but it looks cloudy out there,” Roberts said Monday. “And we’re heading right into it.”
The vote comes three months after a Superior Court judge denied the union’s appeal of the council’s 2003 decision to ignore funding commitments for a handful of health care and leave benefits for unionized workers.
Lozano declined to speculate Monday whether the union would carry its case to the Supreme Court.
A trio of former city officials offered mixed comments prior to Monday’s vote. Don Seeliger said the measure would “betray” other unions that have abandoned legal claims over the budget cuts. Jerry Cleworth also rang alarm bells, suggesting the contract would run beyond the cash-strapped city’s ability to pay. He noted city officials’ annual budget hinges partly on the anticipation of shared revenue from the state.
“If this contract is approved, you are going to pretty well wipe that out,” Cleworth said of revenue sharing.
Former Mayor Steve Thompson, however, said reduced medical costs and other savings would have outweighed the contract’s price tag.
The vote followed an unsuccessful effort by Eberhart to postpone the measure so council member Bernard Gatewood, who missed Monday’s meeting to attend a state board hearing out of town, could participate. Mayor Terry Strle disapproved of the decision to move ahead without Gatewood and called it a “disservice.”
Community Discussion
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I am sure the mayor called it a 'disservice' because the missing Gatewood would have tied the vote...
And then she could have broke the tie in the FF and unions' favor.
Thank you council members for being responsible stewards of the $$ entrusted to you.
It is so easy for everyone to criticize the fire department and services they give in this town. In reality it is the citizens who refuse to take care of the fire department who are to blame for any lives lost due to inadequate services. Your lack of social responsibility and your selfishness are shameful. I sincerely hope that your house never burns, but if it does, the same fire department you curse will be the ones to save you. I bet you wont whine about that tenth guy then. The funny part is that most of the ones whining about the fire department live outside of their area of responsibility.
Fairbanskans are going to have to step up at some point and take care of themselves or this little town is going to dwindle into nothingness. I'ts too bad too, because this is a rather nice little tourist trap.
It was kind of odd that the ten minimum was even a topic. Current staffing at nine is three on engine one, two one engine three, two on medic one, one on the platform and a battalion chief. Ten would put three on engine three all the time. That way when we have a second ambulance call we still have at least one staffed engine. We pull people off other trucks to staff second and third ambulance requests. With our run volume increase simultaneous calls are more and more often. This was a needed fix. I guess when you pull only sections out you can’t see the forest for the trees. They talked about the Fire Act and Safer grants that would pay for the personnel but that didn’t seem to sink in. Oh well onward and upward, contracts always gave me a false sense on security anyway.
Before this article gets to many hits I would like to ask everyone to lay off the "your house is gonna burn down and people will die because you didn't support the fire department" argument.
What...the fire department is going to slack off because they didn't get this contract? Give more credit to our firefighters. They will still do their job with the professional and dedicated service we are used to getting in Fairbanks. The only difference is they won't be smiling as much for a while and, like all of us in this town, they will have to crunch their spending to make ends meet. Another round of negotiations is over and another round will be coming up I am sure. When city voters turn down sales taxes and tighten up property taxes they are not against any department in particular. They are against trying to pull money out of their empty pockets to sustain a government that just happens to have a bunch of departments with their hands in those pockets. At least that's the way I see it.
This sort of sums up the mentality of to hell with you people we want all we can get one way or the other.
"Dominic Lozano estimated carries the potential of a $1.5 million hit to the city."
So ... we had 3 intelligent folks on this issue and the 2 usual idiots who want to give away the farm. Then there is always the hysterical one like zeb4jc who starts screaming about lost lives!
The fact is that they fire department folks are overpaid and the service should be turned over to the private sector. This union business has no place in taxpayer funded departments ... it needs to stay in the private sector where we have a choice to fund it.
At least we have three responsiable members on our council, wonder how long that will last? The Fairbanks fire fighters union is WAY out of line and still using the "my life on the line" BS. Driving a cab in fairbanks much more live threating than being a fireman. Do they have a tough job, yes, PERHAPS some day they will be asked to do it. I would not wont to be in their shoes when and if that time comes, but mean while the rest of us dont wont to pay for what they MIGHT have to do. Lets stop the fighting, making the lawyers rich, (Mr.Eberhart), PRIVATE enterprise WILL do a better job..come on Faribanks show some GUTS and do the right thing.....
I have some of the best fire service in the state and it is provided by a largely volunteer fire department.
You people truly amaze me. The 1.5 million is the amount of benefits the city still owes due to non-funding. Just because you don’t pay it doesn’t mean it goes away. Try that with you bank sometime. If your employer decided one day to lower your pay by 2 dollars an hour what would you do? That with a signed contract binding your employer to your previous rate. You all may hate public employees but in this case we were just asking to be dealt with honorably. Is it to much to ask for integrity from your employer? I could care less about the money it’s the principle of the issue. So now go ahead and beat on public employees, sorry to interrupt the hate fest. Oh and my overpaid wage is 24 dollars an hour after 15 years. You will be happy to know that is down from 26 something due to the last contract and health care.
Way to go City Council!!!!!
Sean -
24/hour comes out to roughly 50k/year.
The Bureau of Labor Statistics shows the current average wage in Alaska is $19.33. That is the AVERAGE wage. You currently make approximately 20% more than the average wage - not counting benefits and 7 weeks vacation time, health insurance, etc etc
What do you think you should be paid? How much is enough? You chose to become a public servant and I assume you didn't do it for the money. $50k is a respectable wage - especially with benefits.
I guess if its not enough you could always come join me in the private sector. I make more but get half your off time, no insurance, etc etc. To get a raise I don't have a collective bargin - I have to threaten to quit - and then the boss decides whether or not he still requires my service.
I have had to fire and have seen 4-5 people get fired over the last year where I work - has that ever happened to a public employee up here for performance reasons?
Maybe you should be thankful for having a nice comfortable public job and job security it provides - most of us do not have it so good!
Public employee unions and their associated contracts are the problem.
Fairbanks should privatize fire and ambulance service, opening these jobs up to fair competition. That would undoubtedly result in better levels of service at far lower overall cost to the taxpayers.
These jobs should be employment-at-will with no contract. There are plenty of qualified firefighters around who can satisfy the needs of the community. A combination full-time and volunteer force would work well for the City.
Ambulance service should be reduced to the EMT III level. There is no need for paramedic level service. Do a study and discover that having expensive paramedics on staff doesn't provide better care nor does it save more lives than a good EMT III level service would. EMT training and certification are available through the State at far lower cost than outside paramedic schools. Every single fire fighter on staff can and should be EMT III certified.
The truth is that the IAFF union has a binding contract that protects the fire fighters wages and benefits at the expense of City residents. That stranglehold must be broken and free competition brought in. City residents deserves better than they are getting and until something dramatic is done wages and benefits for the fire fighters will remain far above what the City residents who pays the bills get.
Fire fighting is an honorable profession but lets be real here...it doesn't take all that much to be a fire fighter. Almost any able-bodied man or woman can function as a fire fighter or medic with minimal training. And, contrary to a common misperception, it isn't even that dangerous. How many Fairbanks fire fighters have ever been killed fighting a fire? I believe the number is zero.
Get rid of the public union and their contract, establish a combination paid/volunteer force and dump the paramedic service. That would solve the City's fire department problems for good!
Headline should have read "Councilman Hilling owes no one respect". I could not believe he said that, reference another council person. That will make a great sound byte for whom ever runs against Hilling this fall!
I have to wonder...is putting the Cities faith in an arbitrator any better? The City could end up with a more costly contract and have no say in the matter.
I know a few of the firemen, and I know they will continue to provide the best service available despite the outcome of the vote. I have remained quiet watching these blogs, but think about this- how well has privatization worked with Halliburton and Blackwater?
Privatization works just fine. After all, most Alaskans and Americans are in the private sector doing great work without a straightjacket public union contract.
That said, privatization wouldn't have been my first choice but the IAFF contract doesn't allow for the City to dump the IAFF to go with a City-sponsored non-union labor force. The Union has the City handcuffed and the only possible way to break the stranglehold is for the City to get out of the firefighting business entirely. Hence the need for privatization.
City workers, including the fire fighters, are going to run Fairbanks into bankruptcy. They are already costing the taxpayers a fortune. Unions are great to protect the rights of workers but what happens when the Union gains the upper hand through a contract that takes away the management rights of their employer? The Mayor and City Council can't control their labor costs due to the contracts they've inherited. It is time to break through those barriers and re-establish a fair equilibrium.
I always wondered why the ladder truck rolls with an ambulance call not involving an auto accident? Do you need more people? Does the ambulance need an escort? Is it to pump up the "responded calls"... a cry for more funding... a numbers game?
Reminds me of the police dept., I have a vechicle stolen, I go to the city police office, I pick up the phone (because the blinds are down in the clerk's window), the voice on the other end directs me to a form on a table to fill out, I call back after filling out the form, I'm given a case number to enter on the form and told to slide the form under the glass window. WOW, another case "work" by the FPD!
It's not a numbers game Niceguy - 1 call = 1 call no matter how many apparatus respond. Generally Engine 1 rolls with the ambulance (Medic 1) if a fire truck is needed for assistance. Now, I have no idea if Engine 1 is the ladder truck, i can't remember. Fire trucks are often dispatched automatically to serious calls for extra manpower and assistance. Certain types of medical calls are manpower intensive and the ambulance needs more people then usually respond on it (2 people).
Sometimes assistance is also needed if the patient needs to be moved down/up stairs or a long distance, or the patient is large and takes extra people to move them.
xhiker
A "good" EMT III service can not, under state law, provide the same level of care as Paramedics. There are interventions, medications and skills that EMT IIIs can not do no matter how much training they have that Paramedics can. The FFD Paramedics may not use the Paramedic level skills on every single call, but it is still necessary to have a Paramedic level service because the fire service as a whole is based off the worst case scenario. The fire service (on a national level) always plans for the worst and hopes for the best. FFD does need to be a Paramedic service because when they do use the Paramedic skills/medications it's because that patient has something going really wrong with them and they need the advanced skills to help them.
There is close to a 1200 hour difference between the training needed to become an EMT III and a Paramedic. EMT IIIs receive about 300 hours of training for their certification. Paramedics receive about 1500 for their license.
Something I neglected to mention - FFD has the only Paramedic level ground ambulance service in the area. Some of the volunteer services have Paramedic members, but they don't have the medications/equipment that FFD does. Because of this, the volunteer departments have the option to call FFD mutual aid to assist with a patient that may need the Paramedic level intervention. Granted it doesn't happen very often, but it's a good back up for the volunteer departments.
Aidey, are you blogging here during your 24 hour shift, or a spouse?
10 years service = 14 weeks leave, I have to read that website. P.S. where do I sign up?
And before people start freaking out about the City paying for non city residents being transported - under the mutual aid contracts reimbursement is made from the department receiving mutual aid, so the right people end up paying for it.
Aidey -
All you are lacking now is the pom-poms.....
If the paramedics are so vital - what is the number of people in the outlying areas who have died as a result of this lack of coverage from the volunteers?
You mention the mutual aid - but i find it hard to believe that the volunteer guys would waste time calling for the mutual aid when they could just drive the patient to the hospital.
Tell me, Aidey, what is your honest opinion of the days of 'sick leave' and vacation provided? Don't you feel they may be a little much? Is there no pork you can identify in this deceased contract?
Ok, for the 4th time. I"M NOT A PAID FF!!! I DO NOT WORK FOR FFD, I HAVE NO ASSOCIATION WITH FFD. I do not know any of the FFD FFs outside of the distant professional relationship I have with the department as a member of another (volunteer) department.
Strange - no one even asked that.....
I asked for an opinion of the contract - - no more and no less.
Since you are a volunteer member, I salute you. Is the area you serve that much more unprotected because you are a volunteer and not funded by the city?
Exact numbers - I don't know. You can't just use death as a qualifier, you also have to look at people who suffered long lasting damage/deficit because they didn't receive advanced care. Somehow I don't think the boroughs lawyers are going to let that information out to anyone.
It's called "intercept".
Say I have a patient who has severe burns and needs to have a breathing tube inserted in their throat to keep their airway from closing. Where I volunteer I have the ability to insert a breathing tube, but I don't have the medication needed to insert it in a conscious patient who is breathing on their own - essentially I would have to wait for the patient to stop breathing or die before inserting the tube. I could call for FFD to meet my ambulance on it's way into town so they can take the patient and give him the medication to sedate him so they can insert the breathing tube, since they have the medications needed to do that.
As for the sick leave/vacation time I need to read the exact contract before I make a decision on that one.
That wasn't directed at you Akguy - it was to Niceguy who was asking if I was on my 24 hour shift or a spouse.
I refuse to bring my volunteer department into this discussion because A) it's way off topic and B) Some people reading this do know who I am, and I don't feel it's appropriate me to air my opinion in this particular setting.
I am amazed that the city council once again has rejected the fire fighters contract. Are they waiting for the fire fighters to work for free? It seems as though the fire fighters have negotiated in good faith only to see the city council jerk them around once again.
I do live in the city and will gladly pay higher taxes so I have the piece of mind to know that professional fire fighters will respond if I have an emergency. With all do respect to volunteer fire fighters, they do not have the training and experience that professional fire fighters have. Fire fighting is a career that takes years of classes and training to improve and get better, just like any other profession.
I also do not know what the dollar amount would be, but I know that my fire insurance would go through the roof if I lived outside of the city limits and were served by a volunteer fire department.
I do not belong to a union, but there are many times where I wish I had a union that would fight for me and protect my well being. As many people seem to believe, this is not the day and age of Jimmy Hoffa unions. The fire fighters union is not trying to shake down the city for unfair pay and benefits. The fire fighters union seems to be looking out for their members and their contract requests do not seem to be out of line.
It's time that Fairbanks residents and city council supported their fire fighters the same way that other city's do, and thank them for their hard work!
Shawn White
Your comment about making $24 an hour is kind of misleading. In reality, that is your base salary, but on a give shift you get paid as follows $24 x 8 hours and then $36 x 16 hours for each shift, correct
Thats incorrect hckywtchr. FFs who work a 24 on 48 off schedule fall under different wage and labor laws then people who work 5 8 hour days a week. With a 24/48 schedule they don't get overtime until after 56? hours a week (I think it's 56, I'm not 100% sure, but I know it's in the 50s). So they aren't getting as much overtime as you've calculated.
The fire insurance rates inside and outside the city are within a few dollars per year. If you factor in the reduction in property tax it's a huge savings to not live within the city.
Niceguy,
Applications for a job @ FFD are available at City Hall. You've missed this years application cycle and will have to wait until the next one. Good luck!
Oh, I get it now, you weren't serious. Silly ol' me. My mistake.
I guess that means you're not willing to regularly put your life on the line for others after all. Too bad, we need more people that are willing to do that in this community.
Commonsense:
A comprehensive insurance rate study has been done locally and the rates for fire insurance for properties of equal value inside and outside the City are NOT within a few dollars a year, unless you live in some of the area's covered by the University Fire Dept.
Commonsense - thats not true when you look at only what people pay for fire insurance and fire taxes. City taxes overall are more expensive because city residents are taxed for things borough residents aren't - city gov't, sanitation, sewer/water etc.
As for fire insurance if you live outside of the City limits you in one of 7 fire service areas. University, Chena Goldstream, Ester, Steese, Northstar, North Pole, and the no service area. Each fire department has been given an ISO rating, which is a insurance rating used to determine how well a fire department is equipped to respond to a house fire. They test the departments based on how much water they have access to, how fast they can flow water, average staffing levels etc. Of the 7 Fire departments in the area North Pole, City and University have hydrants at all. The rest of the departments rely on tanker trucks to deliver water. UFD and FFD have the lowest rating, a 2 and a 3 respectively (a part of UFD's area doesn't have hydrants and the rating there is higher). In North Pole, i'm not sure what the ISO rating is. The rest of the departments, Ester, Chena Goldstream, Steese and Northstar all have ratings between 6 and 8 (if I remember correctly, I know for a fact they are all higher than FFD and UFD). This means the people in these areas pay up to several hundred dollars more for their fire insurance then someone with a comparable house in UFD or FFDs fire service area.
If you live in the no service area some places won't even give your fire insurance, and if they do it is very expensive.
Right now I have a property worth about 175,000 (two cabins on 2.5 acers) outside of the city, and pay about $2200 for insurance (a lot, but one unit is a rental). I live in a service area with an 8 rating. If it goes down to a 6 I will save $48 a month, or about $575 a year on my insurance. While I don't have exact numbers, ISO rating does make a big difference on insurance. If my department had the same rating as FFD - a 3 - my insurance would go down nearly $1000 a year.
The sad part about this argument is there are actually some of you who are willing to give up not only your safety, but the safety of others just to save a few bucks. You will pay for health, medical and car insurance, but you never expect to get in a serious car accident or need serious medical attention.
With the lack of personal responsibility that is rampant across the United States, and especially in Alaska with respect to fire, we should be paying more for fire protection. People refuse to change the batteries in their smoke detectors, if they even have them. They don't listen when they are told to properly maintain heating equipment, not to leave their cooking unattended, or to practice safe smoking habits.
The big problem may not come today or tomorrow or even in the next year, but someday there will be a huge tragic fire or natural disaster and who knows what the fire department staffing will be like then. How safe do you feel knowing there could be a Hurricane Katrina or 9/11 sized event in Fairbanks without the FD staffing of New York or New Orleans? I don't feel comfortable with that at all. Even with current staffing, including paid and volunteer departments the emergency services would be so overwhelmed it's mind boggling. Then think about how long it would take for outside resources to get here...How safe do you feel now?
This is for sure the only city in America where this discussion would be taking place. I worked for a fire dept. in the Lower 48 that also had been operating for 3 years without a contract by the time I left. Sure the residents of the county didn't give a crap about us and our fight to get paid, but at least they didn't write to the newspaper and bash us at every turn. (BTW I'm no longer a firefighter up here)
Give me a break those of you who are so concerned about this have plenty of other options left to you besides trying to ruin this town for those of us who actually enjoy living here. Alaska's a big state, and if you don't want to pay for services YOU DON'T HAVE TO! Leave the city! But let me guess you live in The City of Fairbanks (if you even do, odds are you live in an unincorporated part of the borough and really don't have any say in any of this mess, you are just so anti-government that your hatred clouds your judgement) for a reason, BECAUSE YOU LIKE HAVING SERVICES!
So shut up, pay your taxes (maybe fight for lower property taxes, and instead institute a sales tax, which gets money from EVERYONE, especially the plethora of tourists who invade this town for 5 months and spend money like its going out of style) and enjoy living the easy life in a city with utilities, garbage pickup, and people who will bail you out when disaster strikes. If you don't want to pay for any of that, then move to Livengood, or Nenana, or Nome, or Fort Yukon, or build a cabin in the middle of the freaking Bush for all I care! Just quit trying to ruin this city and bring it back to 1912.
If you live inside the City you could sue for autonomy and get exempted from the taxes if you really hate paying them that much. Granted you won't get the services like fire, garbage etc, but you won't have to pay taxes!
On a side note, does anyone find it strange that UFD and FFD have the same staffing levels, but FFD has over 50% of the calls in the borough and UFD has about 15%?
hckywtchr,
If you read the FLSA (Fair Labor Standards Act) which outlines Firefighters overtime guidleines, you will see that firefighters receive their basic pay ($24/hr in this case) for the first 56 hours per week. This is different from the normal public in two ways, 1) they do not receive OT at 40 hours like normal, 2) they also do not recieve OT for anything beyond 8 in a shift.
Since city FF work 24/48 this means they will average 5 (24 hour) shifts in a 14 day pay period. This would mean they work 120 hours in a two week pay period. Which is 8 hours of over time for the whole 2 weeks.
Sean White- this is how I understand it after reading the FLSA. Please correct me if I am in error.
I would encourage folks to read the final report on the investigation into the deaths of 9 Charleston, South Carolina firefighters in 2007. It is a very critical report of the fire dept (So AKGUY and BigMike will probably enjoy reading it). But I made the observation that several key failures cited in the report included training, staffing, and equipment. The connection I make is that those items or concerns are addressed in the FF's Union Contract in an effort to improve them as well as they are specifically mentioned in the City Fire's annual report as the key items addressed by the Fire Chief but that he is lacking resources (money form city council) to be able to meet the objectives.
I beleive that our Fire Dept will continue to do the excellent job that they do. They are the epitome of doing more with less. However, they WILL reach a breaking point when, what we as citizens require of them outruns the resources we give them to do what we ask of them. By the tone of these, and others, posts I predict that we will look at the fire dept and say, WTF, why did YOU fail. When in reality it is WE, the citizens, who have failed them. The worst part of it is that they will not let it be the citizens that pay the price because they will step up to the plate and perform as their profession demands, and we will no longer be able to say that we have only lost one firefighter in the line of duty.
Further, we have lost a firefighter in the line of duty. His name is Donald P. Hyde. Look it up XHIKER. Also, the petty argument you will make...don't try it.
Link to the Charleston Report
http://firehouse.com/firereport_051508.p...
Firefighters are genuine heros and can't be paid enough, IMHO. The responses above are typical for the cheapskate residents of the City of Fairbanks: in a time of difficulty, if you are unable to pack up and go home to the lower 48, circle the wagons and start shooting inside.
Can those of you that are so disgusted with the Fairbanks Fire Department please explain why? Is it their pay, their schedule, the fact that they are in a union? Do you feel the same way about the police and other city employees? Does the city council treat the fire fighters differently? What is it with Fairbanks, because I don't understand why you hate fire fighters!
Almost every other community that I have been in respects the dangerous job that fire fighters perform. Hundreds of fire fighters die each year across the U.S. protecting the lives and property of others.
Believe me, fire fighters are not treated like this in places such as New York City, Boston, or even Anchorage!
I agree that the 14 weeks after 10 years of service of paid vacation does seem excessive to most people. I am not sure how any department can be efficient when their employees can be gone (paid) for almost 3 months per year, per employee. That being said my husband went to college for several years and has a degree in fire science (most firefighters I know have at least an associates degree or more) and was an active firefighter in Alaska for several years. 24.00 per hour (he actually only made about 19.50 when he left) and shift work (with a family) just wasn't worth it. He works in the private sector and makes much more than he was making as a firefighter although his vacation time and medical are not as impressive. He can still volunteer and utilize his skills.
I have watched city politics for years, and never seen a group more scrutanized by a very small, but very vocal group then the firemen. No other contract gets the review the firefighters seem to get. The group attacking them (not the contract- the firefighters personnaly) thrives on misinformation and clearly do not understand the fire service. I have family involved in fire departments in other places, many on here way underestimate the skill and knowledge needed to be a firefighter/medic.
I am embarrased as a resident, not by the comments on the contract (everyone is entitled to their opinion) but at the attacks on our firefighters. Why do a few of you exhibit such a hatred? These are men and women working hard to do a job...I do not see them coming to your work place and harassing you. Why are you better educated about the communites needs for fire and EMS protection then the trained proffesionals that provide the service? Feel free to question terms of any contract, as long as you question all city contracts equally. Avoid the personal attacks and hatred.
I did a little investigating...ten year employees would get 22 hours per pay period or 44 hours per month of combined sick/annual leave. Remember, they work 24 hour shifts and therefore must use 24 hours of leave to get a day off. 44/month= 528 hours year = 22 days off = about 8.5 weeks. That includes sick leave, and they can't work sick or injured. Where are you geeting this 14 weeks of leave? Seems your math is off. I love a good conspiracy and all, but lets at least be accurrate.
BigMike has proven time and time again that being accurate and truthful is not what he's all about.
What he's all about is being deceitful and providing as much misinformation as he can. I also think he likes to hear himself talk.
Take a look at the online comments to this ( http://newsminer.com/news/2008/may/14/ci... ) News-Miner article, if you have the stomach and patience for it, to see what I mean.
Sorry i was out putting up siding on another FF house. He is over in the sand box and is due back soon. hckywtchr I hope you got you question answered. If not please call our secratary at 450-6650 I really have no Idea how it all works. Its my direct deposit enigma. I was underpayed for 2 years because I could not figure it all out.
How many taxi drivers died in FNSB over the last ten years? How many truck drivers?
How many FF lost their lives in the same period? Less?
I respect the fact that people work as FF and EMS, but NOT because they are 'risking their lives' etc etc etc. There are plenty of jobs in Alaska that are far more dangerous. I respect the FF/EMS because some actually still believe in their jobs and truly want to help people.
It would be nice to have this argument without the 'risking their lives' blurb always being thrown back at people with a differing opinion. I, too, have 'risked my life' for this country during my service, but I never once used that as a reason for complaints about the pay, etc. and my job was dangerous...got the hazardous duty pay to prove it! I took the job - I knew the pay - and I did it in the end because I believed in it. To me the pay was a bonus.
I will tell you that the typical fireman has good benefits, adequate time off and comparable wages to the private sector. People do not work for the Government to be wealthy, do they? I didn't.
So why do they want more? When has any of you heard a FF thank the TAX PAYER for his wage. They always complain that no one thanks them...but it is a two way street - and the next time you go out and feed your livestock, sit on your couch watching your big-screen TV or take a ride on your snow machine - - remember...that was paid by the taxpayer who you ridicule when they question your contract.
Look, I don't think anyone has ridiculed someone for questioning the contract itself. The majority of the issues have come up when people are quoting false information for their basis for being against the contract. What we have tried to do time and time again is correct that information so people can make a decision about the contract based on correct facts, not rumors, gossip and assumptions.
However, every time we do that someone has come along and insisted we are misleading the tax payers on purpose, trying to bilk them out of money etc. There is no conspiracy here. Yes some things don't make sense like the whole leave issue. I still can't figure out where someone got 14 weeks of leave a year from, ever after scanning through the contract.
I can see where anyone would be like "Woah, stop 14 weeks!?" However, that doesn't seem to be an accurate number, which is leading to people making judgments about the FFs and the contract based on false information. I think that is what is upsetting to people, not the fact that the contract is being questioned at all.
hey, akguy, firefighters are taxpayers too!!!!!!! they contribute to their own wages...I hope they thank themselves...
Careful Caligula - only 4 of the 40 or so FFs live inside the city, which i'm sure someone will rant about. Even so though - most of the ones who live outside the do pay fire service taxes to someone.
Just because firefighters don't die as often as cabbies and truck drivers, it doesn't mean the job is any less dangerous. I mean, think about it. A cab driver gets a call to pick someone up and they think that he or she looks threatening...DRIVE AWAY and have someone else pick that person up. Or, if that person is intoxicated, you can call the police and they will deal with it. Now, a firefighter on duty gets called to a medical emergency and arrives on scene to find a domestic dispute and the aggressor is on scene with a gun and not happy to see "the government" there. The firefighter can't leave and not come back. He or she may call the police and back away, but there is still medical attention required.
Think about this too...would a cab driver run into a building undergoing demolition to save strangers? A building on fire is essentially being destroyed, and with the lighter weight, cheaper construction being used these days, the buildings are collapsing at a much faster rate.
End note: Take a look at www.firefighterclosecalls.com and check out the secret list. There are plenty of firefighters/EMTs/ first responders of all ages and types dying every day across the world. We've just been extremely lucky in the interior.
I posted a couple of comments to the Firefighter letter to the editor by Jack Hillman, but I wished I had posted them here.
I know that talking to people like akguy, Bigmike, hckywtchr and niceguy feels like talking to an ignorant brick wall, but people that read these comments need to know the facts, not the hearsay.
I again balk at the rumor of 14 weeks vacation. Where on earth do people come up with these numbers!?!? Did they actually read the contract or did they pull a # out of a hat and say "that sounds like a good high #, more fuel for the fire!!!" If you READ the proposed contract that was so brilliantly voted down, one would know why I wrote this in the other comments "18(hrs)x2(pay periods per month)=36 x 12(year)=432/24(hrs a ff works for one shift)=18(days of vacation). 18 days, that really equates to 14 weeks. If you look at a ff that has been with the dept for 121+ yrs they only get 22 days off a year. Doesn't someone who has been at a job for over 10 yrs deserve 22 days off a year?"
Also, has anyone in favor of privatization of a fire dept. actually done any research? It does not work!!! Read up on the problems Scottsdale, Arizona had. You'll see what I mean.
If you can’t fit the shoes, quit complaining!!!!!!!!!!
"If you can’t fit the shoes, quit complaining!!!!!!!!!!"
Amen to that!
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