City Council reviews possible three-year contract with firefighters
Published Wednesday, May 14, 2008
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Stumble It!Fairbanks City Council members are combing the details of a proposed three-year contract with union firefighters, a deal the union’s president and city mayor characterized as firm and without room for changes.
The deal, if approved by firefighters and the City Council, would strike a contract with the last of four unions at the city. It has yet to attract uniform support from elected and advisory city officials.
With worries over skyrocketing energy costs creating a cloud over the Fairbanks economy, council members Lloyd Hilling and Vivian Stiver have questioned whether the city should look to increase the number of firemen that must be on duty at any given time, as the proposed deal would do.
“I really do believe the firefighters came to the table,” Stiver said Saturday of the proposal, which follows three years of stalled negotiations. But Stiver worried increasing minimum on-duty staffing levels — from nine to 10 workers on duty at any given time — could increase overtime costs down the road. “The economic tide is what I’m afraid of.”
Dominic Lozano, president of the Fairbanks Fire Fighters Association, said the current nine-man minimum has been in place for more than a decade. He said the Fire Department responded to a record number of emergencies in 2007, surpassing the previous high seen in 2004 and rising beyond levels seen during the pipeline days, when the department had more workers.
“There is no room for changes at this point,” he said of the contract. “I hope that the council realizes it when they come up (for) a vote. ... It was a long process of negotiation, and both sides worked really hard to get their priorities taken seriously.”
Mayor Terry Strle said she proposed the contract for the council to consider as a whole, not change. She called it a compromise that includes concessions from union leaders and the city.
“I think that both sides, in my opinion, moved forward very professionally,” she said.
The proposed deal would hand each firefighter “longevity leave” time — hours of time off that can be used or cashed in — based on the number of years he or she has worked at the department before eliminating the program, as it has at other departments.
The clause aims to settle a long-running legal fight over the 2003 City Council decision to reject funding commitments for a handful of benefits for union workers.
The council’s decision, which came as part of a series of budget cuts, sparked a number of lawsuits that the firefighters’ union has indicated could wind up in state Supreme Court, a possibility the contract would erase.
Councilwoman Tonya Brown said she still has questions, but will likely vote to approve the deal to secure raises for firefighters, who have gone without cost-of-living raises since 2005.
“It is in some ways better than what they have, and I don’t see the advantage of prolonging this process,” she said.
Devil in the details
Members of the City Council’s Finance Committee indicated last week they’d prefer settling the 2003 budget cuts with a cash settlement — as the city did with police officers — rather than with leave time to avoid future overtime costs. Lozano, however, said he senses union members see leave time as a chance to recover a fraction of the time off they lost due to the cuts — time that added up to hundreds of hours for some workers.
Firefighters work 24-hour shifts. The proposed contract also includes a laundry list of new “work rules” Fire Chief Warren Cummings has said are meant to protect worker safety and reduce overtime costs at the fire department. No firefighter, for example, would be allowed to work for more than 96 straight hours. The chief would be empowered to suspend any employee’s allowance of “standby time,” where one firefighter can swap shifts with another, in cases of abuse.
The city would offer firefighters a health care plan equal to one accepted by police officers two years ago. Chief of Staff Pat Cole estimated it would bring the city’s obligation toward Fire Department employees’ health care costs below levels seen in 2001.
The City Council has scheduled a Monday night public hearing on the proposed contract.
Community Discussion
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The firefighters, if you can call them that, are grossly overpaid and are a selfish bunch as a whole.
The city should contract out the EMS service and small amount of fire fighting and get rid of that department completely. They have sucked off the community and again, like the teachers, are funded with public money that we can not control. Looking to the city council to solve anything is like asking the Pope to become Jewish!
What choice do we have … none …. So, give them what they want, cut the BS and lets get this dog and pony show on the road. Free health care, shorter work weeks, and 3x the pay! I vote YES.
What about using a half million dollar fire truck to go shopping, pick up a pizza ? The term WORK is surely abused when talking 24 hour shifts, how about gettting paid to sleep, even overtime. Every one knows the only way to solve this abuse is get rid of the union, but no one has the XXXXX to do so, as they have said in the past, just raise the taxes and pay us....
Wow, such hate...maybe you should get over yourselves. The citizens review committee led by citizens (such as Michael Dukes) pushed for the increase in ambulance fees. Not the fire department. So blame Michael Dukes. I question Vivian Stiver’s comments. She created the citizen review committee. The committee stated that more firefighters were needed, and now she is against extra staffing? Which opinion is really hers? Stiver wants to raise ambulance fees and increase fire staffing in secret, but not in public, hmm…
James, as for over paying the firefighters, I called the city a while back and found out that a starting Firefighter makes $14.00 an hour. How is that overpaid? That is what Wall Mart starts at. How much do you make James? Maybe you should make that public first, and we can see the difference. So quit spreading lies. Anyone else interested in actually finding out what’s going on, should call the city and ask. They have to tell you what you want to know. Get informed.
Anyone one else commenting should state their hourly wage before they bash the firefighters wages. Let’s start being honest for a change. I make $21.00 an hour. This is way more then then the firefighters.
Any normal people are more then welcome to start blogging on this web site to keep the hatemongers in check.
I think the firefighters dont earn enough. I'm not one of them but I think its a very important job and along with teachers, they dont get paid enough. $18 here, Lunaticfringe.
Lets see Firefighting, Cop Work, medics are 3 out of the 4 that are the most unapperciated jobs in Fairbanks (aside from your garbage men).
James and Suomi - If you dont like it start up your own EMS service contract with the city and go from there (if you can afford the Ambulancees, Fuel, insurance, and staffing) I mean jeeze Im sure 1300 a call would cover your expenses and make you a nice hansome profit. AFTER you fight with insurance companies, pick up a few homeless people you might even be able to bill medicad. Hey maybe you guys could be busniess partners.
Bugger - I sure hope they are taking there whole crew and there turck to go to the grocrey store to get something to cook, dude becuase if my ouse cathes fire I dont want them to have to drive back to there station to get there freaking truck I want them to be johnnie on the spot.
Now lets get real Alaska, every other fire department (besides the Airport Police and Fire in Anchorage and Fairbanks) works 24 on 48 off thats just the way it is and thats the way its always going to be and I am fine with that becuase when it comes time for them to go on a call there the ones running into burning buildings not me to get some ones dog or cat out, ahh there the ones that are going to cut me out of a car when some drunk hits me, hell there the ones that hopefully are going to be able to resucitate you when you have a heart attack so how about we give our EMS a big hand when it comes to a dirty job dealing with all the exposure to Hep C, TB, and the whole host of other things
What ever happened to volunteer fire fighting?
Fire fighting does not require much skill... just some commitment and training... it should not be a high paying job (the chiefs that organize, and train, and deal with politics DO deserve higher pay). Firefighting is not a career, it's a job. $14 per hour starting is perfectly reasonable. (I make $12 per hour). If any fire fighter (other than fire chiefs) is making more than $20, then get rid of them, and hire a college kid to do the job.
EMT's also do not require much skill, just some by-the-book training, and should not make much money... being an EMT is not a career, it's a stepping stone. Paramedics, should make a little more (commensurate with the education and skill).
So BillyG are you going to volunteer? Have you joined one of the local Volunteer Fire Departments? I suppose you havn't. What's your reason? Stop casting stones.
There you go BillyG ... volunteer firefighting, EMT's you are 100% right on the money. A clear thinker!
Lunaticfringe it is not a matter of what I or others make. And you can't really take the bottom of a scale and consider this normal. You are thinking emotionally.
Tell us what the "average" pay is for these firefighters and also how much vacation time, health coverage, pension and so on. They are badly overpaid for their skill (which they also got from the taxpayer)and what they do. You will discover quickly that it is one heck of allot more than $14/hour ...lol. More like $40 is what it cost the taxpayer, maybe more.
I certainly do not begrudge anyone good pay. The only point I make is that you have "leaders" making decisions with OP money and it is out of control. The difficulty of the job is immaterial. If they don't like it they can go work for Wall Mart for the same money right? Not likely.
I really dislike free thinkers trying to use public income to make you and others that don't put out the same effort equal. I started with nothing and wondered where my dinner was coming from and managed the best I could by working hard and being conservative. Now these people want me to start over and support them while I pay to train them.
Well James, I pay to support them too. As for not having a say, last time I checked we live in a Democratic-Republic. Which means we vote on elected leaders. These leaders are answerable to us. The community over and over again elects the same people, and funds the same services. Because that is what the community desires. Just because it isn't what you want, doesn't mean it isn't what the community wants. As for Volunteers, guess how much is spent yearly at the other volunteer departments? The North Star volunteer fire dept spent $1.1 million last year, the Steese volunteer fire dept spent $1.3 million, and Chena Goldstream volunteer fire dept spent $800,000. You still have to pay for volunteers. Call those fire deptartments and find out for yourself how much volunteers cost.
Starting salary is 14.00? What is the average yearly wage of a firefighter? I'm talking on the check. The fire fighters make bank when all is said and done. The expected overtime must be calculated as they are required to work it.
Guy's wake up, you get paid to sleep on your 24 hour shift...not too bad.
Let's not mention the 20 year full retirement plan, that will really get people worked up.
The life and times of the fire service has changed boys and girls. BillyG you are woefully uninformed. I was that college kid you speak of. Eighteen years ago I was paid nine dollars and hour at the University Fire Department as a student. I earned a associates in Municipal Fire and was an EMT 3 at the end of 4 years. “Yes I did some soul searching for 2 years” I wanted to be a teacher like Mrs Marsh my high school biology teacher. In the end I found my calling. What I found out was I was just beginning the process of learning. Firefighting and EMS are trades with a steep learning curve that never stops. EMT is the most basic level of EMS Paramedic is the top. Para medicine is a dynamic field with constantly changing technology and education. Cookie cutter EMS and by the book flow charts cover very little of what we do. My Paramedic program was a year long intensive course, most are 2 years. I did a 2 month internship at Miami Dade Fire Rescue at the end to coalesce my education with intensive experience. Again I was just starting to learn. Firefighting is much the same only with a broader scope and education. To fight fire you must have knowledge of building construction “Alaskan and conventional” utilities ”water, power, LNG, LPG…” fire dynamics, fluid dynamics, and all the equipment you use and how they all work in concert trying to hurt you. Everyday those things change and I learn. What of the other disciplines we are responsible for? Hazardous Materials, Vehicle Extrication, Water Rescue, Confined Space Rescue, Wildand Fire, Trench Rescue…. If you dial 911 we are there for you whatever your emergency. The mistaken belief that this is not a career and not worthy of compensation commiserate with my education and experience is hogwash. Sorry if I rambled but my head just about burst when I read the previous blogs.
Lunaticfringe, you say that we fund certain things "Because that is what the community desires"? That's totally bogus. People vote what is comfortable, NOT what is reasonable. Most voters don't give serious consideration to the issues, and are driven by fear and mis-information, not by critical thinking. I truly believe the old addage; "A person is smart, people are stupid". The result of democracy is NOT getting "what the community desires". Our founding father new this, which is why we are a representative republic, and not a true democracy. Our local leader should use thier brains, have some cojones, and do what is right, reasonable, and fiscally responsible to their constituents; Squash the firefighters union, drop the outragous benefits package, and hire and train cheap labor for our firefighters. There are MANY 20-something young men and women who would love to help the community for $14/hr for a year or two.
Also, if you add the Fairbanks fire dept. budget to your list of volunteer fire departments, it would be outragous. There are operating costs associated with firefighting (mostly equipment related), and I am VERY willing to pay for that. I would also GLADLY serve a couple weeks a year as a volunteer if our society were set up appropraitely. We need firefighting to be like jury duty... a responsibility. Every able citizen should get a week or two of training ecvery couple of years, and serve a couple of weeks every couple of years (the training alone would make people more knowlegable and safe), and a person's job should allow for this.
BillyG are you a city resident?
2008 budget for FFD $5,257,530, go to http://www.ci.fairbanks.ak.us/ and read before you blog. Put dollars to dounuts on cost per call FFD is more cost effective than the VFD's.
No, I live just outside the city limits, so I don't actually have much of a say in this issue. We have been considering buying a house in the city, and I sort of like the thought exercise of arguing on these forums... but don't take anything I say too seriously.
I DO think our the firefighters in the city (and in the borough) serve a good purpose, and are likely good people... I just think our local leaders should be fiscally responsible, and use the brains that God gave them.
SeanWhite, I certainly believe your numbers, there will always be economies of scale. It's cheaper, per person, to serve 35,000 in the city, verses serving several thousand in the Steese fire district, even with salaries in the city... I don't deny this. However, that $5,257,530 could be less if we cut wages and/or benefits, or simply did not meet the demands of the union. Seriously, fire fighting in a place as small as Fairbanks should not be a career, it should be a job to put you through college or such.
I do understand the economics of supply and demand in the job market, and we do need to protect ourselves from fire threat. IF cutting wages and benefits means that nobody will serve as a fire fighter, then we cannot do that. But, with a union involved, I doubt this is the case. I really think we could hire cheaper labor, in the form of younger men and women looking for money to put them through school, etc, whom are equally skilled and equally trainable as our current fire fighters.
There is a kid in my kid's class, at a school in town, who's dad is in the Fairbanks Fire Dept.
That kid gets picked up almost every day by a big red SUV type rig that says "Battalion." It is the FFD's rig. I will inspect it more carefully...maybe today.
The guy goes to the school pretty frequently during the day too, and the rig remains parked outside. I have seen him use it to attend some school events in the evening.
I know he's single--and seems to like the ladies--so maybe he's just a show-off.
I also know that his house in town is an awesomely beautiful place, and by far the fanciest in the neighborhood.
His kid's pretty nice. Kinda spoiled, but a nice kid.
Aren't these the same firefighters that took forever to get to the Gaffney Hotel a few years back when the toddler burned-up in the fire? Just a few blocks from the station? (old one).
Oh yeah, that reminds me. The school class took a trip to the new station.
Unbelievable!
HUGE, huge screen fancy TV, a kitchen Julia Child would've envied, all quality furniture...go check it out.
Yeah, it's rough being a firefighter in Fairbanks.
BillyG I think you are wayyyyyyyyyyy out of touch with what it really takes to be a volunteer Firefighter or EMT/Paramedic. For a Firefighter II (the highest level offered in Alaska) and an EMT III it could easily take 800 - 1000 hours of training to get to that point, between all the class room time, and the time spent out of class practicing and perfecting skills. The number grows exponentially over the years as people train to keep their skills current. For a Paramedic it's 1200 hours of training just to get licensed, not the mention the hundreds of hours of documented training needed a year to renew their license. Many places, even volunteer departments are requiring degrees in Fire Science in order to be an officer, which is either a 2 or 4 year degree, depending.
The volunteer firefighters and medics in the FNSB spend their own time and money to be responders in their departments. They take time off from work, family and sleep to respond to calls at all hours of the day and night, 356 days a year.
The idea of making volunteering for the fire department like jury duty scares the living daylights out of me. I know exactly what it takes to keep up these skills and the knowledge and the hell if 2 weeks a year will ever been enough for anyone who is a volunteer firefighter or medic. Nor do I ever want people being forced into the fire service, because love of the job is the NUMBER 1 most important thing. I refuse to put my life in the hands of someone who is being forced to "do their time" because their goal is going to be getting their time done and getting out. Their dedication isn't going to be to the brotherhood, the victims, the families, and if your dedication isn't to those things, I want you as far away from the fire service as possible.
I'm perfectly happy to pay what it takes to have a professional fire department, trained to the highest levels possible, with good equipment and good education. "Cheap labor" is dangerous labor in the fire service, for the fire fighters, for the ambulance patients and for the rescue victims.
Corinne
You seem to think that it's inappropriate for the Battalion Chief to use his rig outside of specifically fire department related activities. I think you don't know what a Battalion chief is. The Bat Chief is the commanding officer of the day. Fairbanks Fire Department (FFD) has 3. One for each shift, there is an A, B and C shift. So they rotate on a schedule like all the other fire fighters. The Bat chief responds to any emergency at any time he is needed. The Bat chief is given his own vehicle as his role is different then those of the fire fighters, as he is generally the incident commander for fires and other large incidents, he does not respond on the fire trucks or ambulances as those are staffed by the fire fighters and medics who will be directly involved in the emergency, while the Bat chief is the commander of the incident.
The Bat chief does not stay at the station at night like the Fire fighters do, which necessitates that he brings his FFD vehicle home with him so that he can respond directly to emergencies, rather than having to pick up the vehicle at the fire station, greatly increasing response times.
The volunteer departments also have practices similar to this, where their Bat chiefs, or Fire chiefs (in a volunteer department the same person may be both, or it may be a separate position) have an official fire department vehicle that they use to respond while they are on duty. We can't ask them to drop everything else in their life while they are driving the fire department vehicle, so you may see these people driving around town on non-fire department business.
As for the quality of the station, the Fire fighters LIVE there for 1/3 of their life, and it needs to be a functional space for them. If you had ever seen their old fire station you would understand why it's such a great thing that their new station is as nice as it is. Responding to actual emergencies can be very stressful, as generally FFs and EMT/Paramedics are seeing people at their worst. For the mental health of all our Emergency workers they need to have the ability to unwind when they return back to the station.
As for the Gaffney Motel fire, I wouldn't bring that up unless you know the complete story of what happened there. FFD may not have been on scene immediately, but Ft. Wainwright Fire was.
Aidy, you may be right about me being out of touch on the training needed, I have a really good friend who was an EMT (not in Alaska). He took a year's worth of classes (24 credit hours total) at a community college. He was an EMT for over 5 years, with just this amount of training (plus whatever he learned on the job). He always complained about the wages (he never made for than $10/hr). And finally, he realized that being an EMT is not a career, and he went back to school, and moved on, while some other young guy filled his spot. I do know that paramedics require much more education and experience (which I mentioned in a previous post), and are often paid accordingly.
I also had a good friend who was a volunteer fire fighter. He loved what he did. He spent several weeks a year training, and providing training for new volunteers, the locallity gave him a truck that he could use for personal use, and he was on-call one week a month. His job allowed him the flexibility to respond when needed, which was not all that often. The local community was served well by my friends (and the low paying system).
IF we do have higher standards for our EMTs and firefighters here, then I will concede that we should pay them comensutrate with thier education and level of professionalism... but only if we need this level to protect ourselves, which I would question. If we do require four year degrees in Fire Science, then we should pay appropriate wages and benefits, but again, I would question whether this is necessary for Fairbanks.
I also mentioned that fire fighting in FAIRBANKS should not be a career. We do not have large tenament high-rises, or sky scrapers, etc, where people's lives can be saved by specially trained fire fighters with years of experience. We have small houses, and small buildings, that are easily escapable, and our fire fighters largely exist to prevent loss of property, which, while important, is a job that I do believe can be filled by 'cheap labor'.
Some fire departments have firefighters working eight hour shifts. The purpose they cite is to eliminate excessive overtime.
Maybe one day FAI will catch on!
Corinne---The fire station was paid for all with a state grant. So it was free to the city of fairbanks. If you ever read the newspaper you would have seen the numerous articles about the station during it's construction. Who cares what is inside, because the City didn't pay for it.
The TV was donated by a patient who bought a new one and wanted the old one to go to a good home. The old TV that was there was bought by the union from soda pop sales. The station was built with grant money and we had almost no input on it. You will see us active in the community period its our job. I think you shot yourself in the foot about Gaffney road and opened a wound. It was a tragedy, and we had three other calls at the same time. We didn’t have enough people we just ran out. Its regrettable its damming its frustrating yet we still have the same staffing. Volunteers would not have helped even mutual aid was 5 minutes away. What would have happened if we had just three more people per shift? Could we have effected a rescue? The questions haunt us and push us to fight for more people. We serve you that’s it, the union serves you by fighting for better staffing, better training, better equipment and better conditions for firefighters. Read the contract, if you have questions call us up we can clarify or call your Mayor.
Zet- The work schedule was studied by the Citizen Review Committee, the city has the report on file, give them a call and find out the comparison between 8 hr and 24 hr shifts. They found out that 24hr shifts are cheaper, because firefighters do not get overtime until the 56th hour in a week. Not at 40 hrs like us.
As for the driving FFD vehicles around, my company lets me drive their vehicle so what is the difference? I guarantee that at Fred Meyers right now there are a dozen company cars in the parking lot. Take a look around next time you go in. I also have a TV in my break room.
Would you all please go to the City web site and look at the budgets. http://www.ci.fairbanks.ak.us/ also overtime saves money....what you say? If they hired more people they could all but eliminate overtime. They would rather bash on people who work harder I guess.
BillyG have you ever studied the architecture in Fairbanks? Please do, and then explain to me how we don't need people specially trained in it.
Also Sean - if I got the description of how your Bat Chief works please correct me, I was going off memory.
BillyG, Hello Fairview Manor, Southhall Manor, MLH, Golden Ages, Litter Dipper Apt's, Anderson Apt's, all the hotels the most dense population in the FNSB. Multiple buildings over 4 stories. Oh by the way big buildings are better for fighting fire in. They are engineered for it.
Battalion is on the same shift 24, 48 he stays at the station with us. Better continutiy that way, but otherwise you are correct they are in overall command of the shift.
BillyG I also recommend you study the number and types of calls that FFD and the area volunteer fire departments respond to. We may not have the high frequency of complicated calls that other areas have, but we do have them. And that necessitates advanced equipment and training. If we didn't do that, the one time we needed the equipment and education and we didn't have it and someone died, the lawsuit would be for much more than it would have cost to be proactive. All fire departments everywhere have to plan for the worst case scenario because when we haven't planned for it and it happens, we are liable. Not to mention how that affects a responder when they know the tools to help someone are out there, but there is nothing they can do.
Ok, thanks Sean - at the old station did he stay?
There has been QUITE a bit of inaccurate information posted here. I suggest two sources: the fire department's annual report, found at the City's web site, www.ci.fairbanks.ak.us. Go to the "departments" tab where you can select "fire department."
The Citizens' Review Committee spend a vast amount of time and produced a very thorough report. A link is found at the left side of the City's home page. The Citizens' Review Committee for the Fire Department was chaired by Council Member Stiver; committee members included KFAR's Michael Dukes, Airport Police/Fire Chief Supkis, former fire fighter Lee DeSpain and John Brown, retired member/business agent of Operator's Local 302.
The committee summary, at page 4 of their report, found that the Dept. is operating efficiently, personnel costs are within industry norms and that staffing is not excessive. They also found that a volunteer or partial volunteer Dept. is not sustainable.
In 2007, there were 4089 calls for service -- mainly for our paramedic level EMS -- an average of nearly one every two hours. It is becoming more and more common that the Dept. receives more than one ambulance call at the same time, and there were 39 times when we had four ambulance calls at the same time!
I work for the City and was assigned to negotiate this and many other labor contracts. Feel free to email me at pbcole@ci.fairbanks.ak.us with questions.
Patrick Cole
So BillyG, James, and Sumoi I think you guys should start your own busniess running an EMS service jeeze these guys just must be tards its just basic book smarts you guys must be experts. Then you could regulate weather your shift supervisor and incident commander can use his Vehicle to drop his kid off at school and hit on corinne, if she was popular with the fire fighters, I hear theres money to be made.
By the way I no longer reside in Fairbanks however I would like to thank you guys (FFD) for doing a great job and all the Volunteers to you guys really make it happen for your service areas.
I would really really avoid continuing discussion on that fire. It happened almost 2 1/2 years ago, many people don't know the whole story, so most of what is going to be posted here will be speculation, rumor, and gossip, and on top of that, its even more off topic then the comments have already been.
In regards to the first part of your question fire trucks respond along with ambulances for multiple reasons. Serious calls, like cardiac or respiratory arrest for example are manpower intensive, so extra people (the fire truck) go along. Any call where someone has to be carried a long distance, up stairs, down stairs, or the patient is large they need extra man power. The fire truck may also respond for scene control, such as directing traffic (police often are too busy with other calls to help with this for short term issues) or protecting a scene that is in a street (like someone hit by a car). A fire truck is a good barrier between emergency responders and speeding traffic. The fire truck may also respond if there are multiple patients, or if they/their tools are needed, such as if someone is hurt and can't open a door and it's locked and they have to break in.
So big mike what cites are you talking about? Give examples not just broad generalizations. I went to college in Pittsburgh and Billings. In both those cities fire engines go with the ambulances. I have also seen fire engines on scene with ambulances in NYC, Seattle, Spokane, Baltimore, Denver and many more. What Cities are you talking about? I’ve also seen the same practice in New Zealand and Australia. I travel a lot for work, and have seen the same practices elsewhere. So I guess every one else in the world is just a stupid in your opinion then. Big Mike are you willing to show up on emergency scenes and do the heavy lifting in place of the fire engine? Maybe you can give your number to the dispatch centre and save the city some money.
Union response my left foot, I'm volunteer and proud of it. (Nothing against FFD/their union of course, I support them to)
That is not the way it is done in most cities. Even in places where the fire and ambulance are separate the ambulance can usually request help from the nearest fire station/department.
I would love to see 2 EMTs/Paramedics carry a 300lb person down 2 flights of stairs and deal with all their equipment...I don't think it can safely be done. Adding another EMT/Paramedic to the ambulance is even less economically responsible then using a the crew of a fire truck.
1. Adding a 3rd EMT means more employees(more money, more benefits etc).
2. It's not economical to add a 3rd EMT when they may only be used about 5% of the time.
3. Codes usually need 4 or 5 people, not 2 in the back of the ambulance (it takes 2 people just for CPR)
4. The fire truck/crew are already there (on shift), being paid anyway.
5. If all you need to do is move a patient you don't need extra people the whole time, just while you are moving a patient. So for maybe a 45 minute call, the fire truck/crew are involved for maybe 10 minutes.
So, how is adding a 3rd EMT economical?
Mike -
There are 5 main levels of calls as defined by our dispatch center. Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta and Echo. Alpha are the most "simple" calls, while Echo is for the "complex" calls. Most of the area departments automatically send a fire truck with the ambulance for Delta or Echo level calls. For Echo, I think all the departments in the immediate area send an fire truck with the ambulance because Echo is generally reserved for cardiac arrest, and other critical calls. On Delta calls it can be negotiable whether the Fire truck automatically goes as determined by the commanding officer.
The policy varies from department to department, so if you want to know how each department handles it I suggest calling each of them.
I highly doubt that FFD has ever sent 3 Engines in order to get 6 extra people on scene. Sometimes the extra people are needed RIGHT NOW which is why the fire truck is sent with the ambulance. Even in cities where the Fire and EMS are separate Fire and EMS can be (and are in some places) dispatched at the same time, it's not always by request.
The firefighters aren't paid any more for responding with the ambulance then staying at the station so what is the big deal?
It's the same number of calls, they don't "double number" calls so if 1 apparatus is sent or 8 are sent it's still 1 call. Some places in Fairbanks used to double number calls, but I don't think any have in years. You can find the call statics on the City website so you can look at the hard numbers and how they divide things up.
3 trucks on scene for a "fender bender" may be appropriate, especially for traffic control. A properly placed fire truck can protect a scene. Also different vehicles carry different equipment, and they may need the equipment off of multiple different rigs
Check this website...www.fairbanksfirefighter.org. The "Frequently asked questions" seems reasonably and professionally done and addresses many of these issues. Also, look at the citizen review committee report (led by Mrs Stiver) on the City Website. Then we can talk from a position of knowledge instead of assumptions. Rumors and conjecture only do harm, and certainly do not help us...the taxpayers. Calling around I find we (on this site) waaaayyyy underestimate the training requirements. Also, seems recruitment and retaining volunteers is a serious problem around here.
I think Chris meant to post it this way:
http://www.fairbanksfirefighters.org/
The Citizen review Committee was Michael Dukes (non-union/non-employee/non firefighter), Vivan Stiver (non-union/non employee/non firefighter), Cathy Persinger (non-union/non-employee/non firefighter), Mike Supkis (non-union/non-employee/ Chief of Airport Fire/Police)- too add professional expertise to the committee, John Brown (union, non-employee, non firefighter), Will Courtney (Non-union/non employee/non firefighte- resigned from committee earlier) and Lee Despain (retired firefighter). Does not seem like an unreasonable cross section to me.
Big Mike, Hmmmm..seems like there are protocals for ems and fire response, some kind of alpha bravo system. As for Michal Dukes, I spoke to him in person and he more then stood by the review committee. In fact he put together the final report. He could have written his objections any time (such as Hilling on the police committee). Don't tell me he was coerced, he had ample time to voice his opinion. Council Women Stiver is not, nor has ever been union friendly, but she also stood by her committee. So any comments by Dukes or Stiver now, are just back peddling.
Big Mike-where were you when they were desperatly seeking volunteers for the committee? Will Courtneys spot was left open after he resigned. Did you try to get involved? Or maybe thats to much work. Bitching without facts must be easier. If you have such a problem run for office and fix things then. Your campaign can be "facts should never stand in the way of my opinion" and " I just complain, why should I actually get involved"
I hope the hate/discontent/miss-trust and anger expressed on these blogs are not truely representative of our community as a whole. Hopefully the negativity is reflective of the vocal minority only. If these blogs are a snapshot of us as 'citizens', then we are in trouble as a community. I don't know if these blogs are a positive thing. Instead of a forum for discussion they have degraded to a free forum, not for honest and open opinion, but for misinformation, lies, conjecture, slander, etc. When did these thigs replace research, fact, reasonability and accurate information? Just my 2 cents, not just from this blog, but many I have witnessed recently.
Mike are you intent on proving there is some conspiracy to bilk to city taxpayers? You keep insisting that FFD is doing all these things that aren't in the best interest of the residents of the City, but it's starting to look like it's all in your head.
I have no problem with you questioning the contract. However you have also questioned why fire trucks respond with ambulances, why there aren't 3 EMTs/Paramedics on the ambulances, you have also indicated that you think FFD is padding their call volume to get more money (by double counting calls). You also seem to think that there is some conspiracy between the dispatch center and FFD to make all the calls Delta/Echo calls, (there isn't I assure you - the call level is determined by a computer). Now you seem to be accusing the contract committee of being bias and stacked in favor of the FFD union.
If you want to question the contract and contract process, do, but please read the FAQ section on the FFD website and let that answer your questions about the rest of the department. Right now you seem to be implying that everything FFD does is just for the money, including their contract (which hasn't come easy).
It seems like both sides have made concessions and compromises in the contract. If you really have such grave concerns about it please attend the Public meeting on Monday.
Read the current version of the contract versus the first or second one. I assure you concessions have been made.
I supose Big Mike is right, the rest of us are all stupid and being bilked. It is a good thing your looking out for my best interest. Otherwise I would just stumble about in the dark with your guiding light of blatent hatred and ignorance. You have been proven wrong on almost every comment by FACTS. Those little things that get in the way of life sometimes. But that is what the man wants us to think. Well we better stock pile aluminum foil to start making those quaint little hats before we can be completly brainwashed.
I pay taxes, and I pay them for services. I also vote, and vote for services. Its my money the same as yours. I choose to spend it on stuff that matters. Roads, schools, fire police, ambulance etc. If you are so against the city move out. Move a few miles down the road and you won't pay a cent. I hear Livengood is great this time of year. I am waiting to hear a commitment to run for office, If you really cared you would back up your opinion with some action. Run for office,you would be better then Hayes at least.
You have to love the internet. No place else can you hide behind a screen name and spout of half truths and uninformed opinions. No place in America our firefighters vilified like Fairbanks. I guess it comes from the years of City council memebers blaming them for all of the cities woes. People say they are overpaid. Looking at the contract the highest paid postion is like $28 per hour. This is a skilled professional person. The plumber that came to my house last week charged me $100 an hour and he didn't risk his life. And I bet if I had to call him at 2:00 am it would be double that. I can't see how a union "holds the city hostage" when those members aren't allowed by law to strike and the city doesn't have to honor it's contracts. As for bigmike, read the contract. It's available online at the city website. The 96 hours is the limit for consecutive hours working.
Wonder what share of these comments are from on-duty fire fighters...
What does that have to do with anything St?
Oh FFS. As far as I know one person who has posted here is a FFD Firefighter, and I myself am with a local volunteer department. It's possible there have been others, but no one stands out.
The fact that we have both been here means nothing to do with whether or not the contract will be approved or not. It means we've had to spend time explaining how things really work to people full of misconceptions. You may have noticed neither of us has spent our time encouraging the passing of the contract, we have instead explained how the fire service works in Fbks.
The City currently pays $750 per month towards firefighter’s health care. The firefighters pay $272 out of pocket per month for their health care. Under the new contract, the City will pay $850 per month, which is what they have been paying for other City employees for several years now. According to my understanding of this website, http://www.kff.org/insurance/7031/print-... , nationally employers pay an average of 76% of their employee’s health care premiums. Based on the above numbers, the City of Fairbanks pays 73% of their firefighters health care premiums, 3% less than the national average for employers.
The firefighters have just learned that as of June of this year monthly premiums from the insurance provider are going to be increased by $96 per month. Firefighters had thought the increase to $850 on the Cities part was going to lower out of pocket expenses by $100 per month, but the premium increase in June will negate that out of pocket savings. So the firefighters will now be paying $268 (roughly) per month out of pocket for health care premiums. Any additional premium increases through out the life of the contract will come out of firefighters paychecks, unless the City agrees to increase premiums for its employees. Health care premiums continue increasing nationally at the rate of 9-13% per year, so a $96 per month increase appears to be following that same trend. Under the new contract and with the new premium increase in June, the City will be paying 76% of the firefighter’s health care premiums, the same as the national average for employers. Well, at least until the next time the insurance industry increases premiums again.
Overtime has been very low over the last year to year and a half. That maximum 96 consecutive hours worked applies primarily to limiting the number of consecutive stand-bys a firefighter can do for other firefighters, though it also applies to overtime as well as any combination of stand-bys and overtime worked, if or when such a situation should arise.
I am a City firefighter, and I am at home and off-duty.
You hit the nail on the head. So much of the issues surrounding the fire service in Fairbanks and the borough are from misinformation. Preconceived notions as to how things work and what the inherent problems are. If anyone reads these rants, diatribes, and odes to beat on the working man and is educated or informed it was worth my time. My wife doesn’t think so…. The dishes and laundry didn’t get done until I fled the field. I just wish people would look to the future and see what I see, a safer more prosperous City of Fairbanks. The city has so much to offer if it could just wear its ship of state out of the irons. To long people have cried smaller, cheaper, sell it, what about build it, develop it, provide it. For fifteen years I have watched the City of Fairbanks languish. When was the last time you saw the city expand its services to unincorporated areas? Or expand its services period? Sorry different rant…
Big Mike -
Thanks for being a voice of reason - even when the whole fire department is on here posting against you
well done
The health care plan the City is offering is identical to the one the police officers have, so I wouldn't blame the Firefighters for what the health care plan says. If you have an issues with the health care plan, the City Council would be the place to complain because the FFs didn't design it.
Akguy - 2 FFD guys is not the whole department. Considering all the misconceptions BigMike has had about FFD I wouldn't call him anything close to the voice of reason.
I give up, I've already explained everything there is to explain and I'm sick of trying to talk to a brick wall.
FF's and Police officers have significantly increased risk of long term health problems compared to a good portion of the private sector. Shouldn't that factor into what they are getting for health care? Just recently bill was passed acknowledging FFs increased risk of certain cancers due to their occupation. This bill also promises coverage for these cancers since they are recognized as being caused from occupational exposures.
Actually Police Officers are not covered by the bill, it's strictly Firefighters. Here is a link to the bill on the AK Senate's website. http://www.aksenate.org/index.php?bill=S...
As for smoke exposure - FFD had 168 actual fires in 2007. This is taken from the City web site - the 2007 Monthly summary report.
FIRE = SMOKE, it's a bloody fact of science.
How dense can you really be?
I think I'm encountering smoke right now BigMike….its blowing up my backside. Everyone tried to educate you, give you resources you called them propaganda. Your like one of those dolls pull the string and out comes the same nonsense. Here I go again trying to educate you. Firefighters are in a special class of health care that is significantly more expensive than Joe Blow. Why you ask? Because we are exposed to smoke almost on a daily basis. Every burned food on the stove, all those car fires wildland fires, dryer fires…Our stats are for structure fires. Did you know that smoke is an immune suppressant? We get oddball cancers no one else gets that’s what the presumptive health bill is all about. Also on health care, people do not call for an ambulance if they feel well. I have had to scrub off lice, exposed to meningitis, TB, flesh eating bacteria, influenza…And that was just in the last year. Our insurance plan is through PSEA the Public Safety Employees Association. http://www.psea.net/hwtrust/index.shtml Our current deductible is 500 a person 1000 per family. There are office visit deductibles as well as other fees to limit use. The city has no health plan they pay lump sums to different providers. PSEA was the only health plan that would even take us on when the city stopped providing a plan. Big Mike you are truly the most misinformed person on the fire service I have had a discourse with So you just keep banging on about issues you have no knowledge of, here let me pull your string.
Fairbanks is not a small non-industrial town much less very small.
Thank you Sean - I think I've lost some brain cells from all the walls I've run into every time I try and explain something to Mike.
my dad says,
Cops like jelly filled and
Firemen like all the others. :-)
I have thought about navy blue powdered sugar....LOL that way it will not show. I workout during lunch time....the donuts haven't got me yet.
i was just joking of course, you guys are always in good shape. hope you laughed.
Some of us better than others. My job is to be there when needed I can’t do that out of shape. Time was if you were on overtime you had to buy the shift donuts...then we got "health aware” and bought bagels…then we looked a the fat and such in those. We went back to donuts. Then compared to ice cream, it’s the least of the three. Come on “moose tracks”.
Your understanding of insurance rates seems to be on the same level of your understanding of FFD.
Taken directly from the contract. The sub points of section C have been removed to meet the length requirement.
5.6 Health Insurance
A. The City shall provide the Members of the Fairbanks Fire Fighters Association, Local 1324 and their dependents with a group insurance program for life insurance, health, dental, audio and visual care insurance. The City will not unilaterally withdraw from the PSEA plan. The current plan, administered by the Public Safety Employee Association Trust (and subject to changes that the Trust may make), will not be replaced without prior notice to the Association. In the event of plan replacement, the parties agree to negotiate over the economic effects of the plan change and, in the event of an impasse, to utilize mediation and binding arbitration, provided that such the arbitrator will not have the authority over the City’s choice of plan.
B. Starting the first month following the effective date of this agreement, the City will pay $850.00 per member per month towards health care plan costs, with members paying the excess premiums by monthly pre-tax payroll deduction. Should the City approve more than $850 per month for any other bargaining unit or for non-represented employees, the higher payment will be made for this bargaining unit as well.
C. Effective 1/1/08 members shall have $100 a month placed into an IRS Section 125 Health Care Spending Account and/or Dependent Care Account established by the City and administered by AFLAC or a substitute administrator. If there are technical reasons which prohibit enrollment during 2008, the City will enter into a substitute arrangement with the PSEA Trust to reduce employee out of pocket expense $100 per month amount for 2008 only.
D. If the Association is removed from the PSEA health care plan for reasons attributable to the City, the City shall provide members with a substantially comparable health care plan and member co-pay amounts for premiums shall not be increased beyond $300.00 per month per employee.
E. Cost of mandated job related physical examinations, tests, and immunizations shall not be included in health care costs for purposes of establishing plan costs or billed to employee health care plans.
F. Should the Association choose to participate in an acceptable alternative plan, the parties agree to pursue the implementation of said plan if mutually agreeable.
Let me see, Fairbanks is the second largest transshipment point in Alaska. More hazardous materials move through Fairbanks than most people know. Flow Line supplies insulated pipe to the north slope at a rate that’s hard to believe. Every thing from TP to drag reducing agent is here for all points north. I will agree we have no paper plants or plastics industry but shipping, construction, aviation, military, waste management are all thriving. Most all contaminated soils are shipped here for remediation at OIT. Tourism is a industry all of its own. Look around Fairbanks is on fire with industry. It may not be what you consider industry but it is all the same.
You forget the overpriced fish hatchery, thats a huge tourism draw. Unfortunately the biggest industry in this town is the City infrastructure itself. Over 19% of the budget, which is over $5,000,000 to the city fire department, that per the above comments fought 6 fires in 2007 = is $833,333 per fire. I dont agree that privatizing wont work, if that is the case why are MOST military privatizing all utilities, security etc?????
Time to fess up and trim some fat in our City Government.......