Air Force addresses Interior aircraft noise complaints
Published Saturday, April 12, 2008
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Stumble It!EIELSON AIR FORCE BASE — A U.S. Air Force brigadier general said Friday that complaints about sonic booms are being investigated one-by-one as the air base conducts its largest training exercise in recent memory, preparing at least one visiting fighter squadron for duty in Iraq this fall.
Operation Red Flag-Alaska, hosted by Eielson’s 354th Fighter Wing, is the first major training exercise to take place at Eielson since last summer.
“Anywhere there are fighter jets, there are occasional sonic boom complaints,” Brig. Gen. Mark W. Graper said at a news conference. “We’re looking into each one. We take it seriously.”
The Red Flag exercise occurs a few times a year at Eielson as a means to provide fighter pilots practice flying combat missions.
The current exercise includes pilots from several bases outside Alaska: the 61st Fighter Squadron out of Luke Air Force Base in Arizona, the 14th Fighter Squadron out of Misawa Air Base in Japan and the 36th Fighter Squadron out of Osan Air Base in South Korea. Armed forces from foreign countries, including Australia and Great Britain, are also participating.
All three American fighter squadrons have overseas deployments in their futures, military officials said.
“Every one of the pilots flying with the 14th Fighter Squadron will be deploying to Operation Iraqi Freedom in September,” said Col. Mark Altobelli, of the 14th Fighter Squadron.
The training consists of one or two flying missions per day with up to 70 aircraft in the same airspace at one time, according to a written statement.
Military officials are attributing the large number of complaints this year to the larger-than-normal exercise. Almost 100 fighter jets and nine heavy aircraft are involved. Some of the aircraft are based at Elmendorf Air Force Base in Anchorage.
The majority of the noise complaints have come from the region ranging from North Pole to Delta Junction. The exercise is occurring in 67,000 square miles of airspace over Alaska and Canada.
Kathy Scott, who lives about 10 miles south of Delta Junction at Mile 1413 of the Alaska Highway, said her house shook earlier this week after one particularly loud boom.
“Boy, I thought that time it was going to take it off the hinges,” the 78-year-old Scott said of her 24-by-20 foot home. “Everything was rattling around in this house. I thought the windows were going to break.”
Graper said all but one of the sonic booms occurred above 30,000 feet, a zone approved for supersonic air travel, according to the military. A pilot on Wednesday inadvertently broke the sound barrier a few hundred feet shy of 30,000 feet, he said.
“He’s been talked to,” the general said.
Dozens of people have called the Air Force about the sonic booms since the two-week exercise began on April 3.
“Some have just been curiosity,” Graper said. “Some have been compliments.”
Several readers of Friday’s sonic boom story wrote on the Daily News-Miner’s Web site that the booms are “cool” and “the sound of freedom.”
An even larger Red Flag training exercise is planned for June, and a third will take place in October, military officials said.
Contact staff writer Amanda Bohman at 459-7544.
Community Discussion
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...and several of us complained that they were annoying.
Probably a good idea that you left that part out, Amanda.
If a sound wave is so large it breaks windshields (as one person commented yesterday), it can't possibly be good for the human body.
And it may be that Alaska is large an mostly unoccupied, but that doesn't make a difference if the sonic booms are generated in the most populous part of the interior. The Air Force could do that anywhere.
The Sound of FREEDOM at 30,000 feet is a Welcome sound.
The Sound of FREEDOM at GROUND LEVEL " 21 GUN SALUTE and TAPS" IS NOT!
We all have heard BOTH yet some exersize that FREEDOM they ENJOY with Complaints. Ear Plugs or BURYING YOU HEAD IN THE SAND will protect you BUT WILL NOT bring Back those who FOUGHT AND FIGHT for that FREEDOM! Only Well Trained AMERICANS CAN !! HELP THEM DO THEIR JOB FOR YOU!
ak_geo: I'm a little afraid that you might be a geologist (inferred from your handle) and bought into that "sound of freedom" crap. That's nothing more than a phrase superimposed on the American flag so that it sounds unpatriotic to raise concerns.
That said, I don’t mind the booms. I realize that they're the result of someone doing their job and there’s a lot more too them than the (simplistic euphemism) “sound of freedom”.
a lot more to them-- I'm so embarrassed.
I agree with Imusuallyright.
But I like the snappy beginning of ak_geo's post.
I spent alot of time in the military and you can bet this problem is fixed. When the general tells you the pilot who errored has been "talked too". It really means that he has been dragged onto the carpet and made aware of his future flipping burgers if the problem isnt fixed.
The rest then get the message. We wont hear those booms again.
Give me a break people!
The fact that the booms scare you to death, they are annoying, freak out your dogs, and so on...
This traning is so important to these men and women and could save their life. If you window breaks call the base and see if you could get it fixed or just call your insurance co. that's why you pay them the big bucks.
Honestly, do you really want to waste your life complaining about something that can save someone else's. You are going to hear a few loud booms, get over it. The military bases have been here long before many of us. (around 1940)This is such a small price to pay for such freedom.
As for the base Commander and Military men and women, THANK YOU!- Do what they train you to do and come home safely. God bless
hahaha! "he's been talked too", yeah, ok. That pilot is as proud as punch (Im trying to use a family friendly word here). I'll bet he is out there right now bragging to anyone thatll listen. I wouldve complained about my house shaking too, but I had no idea it was a sonic boom until I read it in the paper.
Does anyone want some cheese to go with their whine, whine, whine?
Suck it up!
A lot of men and women in the military have died just so you can have the freedom to post your criticism. If you can't handle a little noise in the name of freedom, please leave! I will be happy to hold the door open for you ungrateful people!
GOD BLESS AMERICA!
to me ... I was born and raised here... I LOVE when they come over the house. It gives me chills.... its the Air Force training to fight for our country. And yes the pilots have been talked to and it's not just "he's been talked too" they take that stuff seriously and definatelyl when it comes to cilivians complaining. IN JOY THE SOUNDS OF FREEDOM... and stop complaining. "FREEDOM IS NOT FREE" -- KOREAN WAR MEMORIAL
Please explain to me how the U.S. military is really protecting my freedom to post criticism. I'm not looking for the same old rhetoric here. I want real-life, applies-to-the-current state of our country examples. Am I missing something? Is there someone just itching to breach the Canadian border in order to stop me from voicing my concerns about the way my country is being run? It seems to me that that threat is coming from inside our borders—from my fellow citizens who claim to love freedom.
I'm pretty sure I care about and do a lot more to protect my own liberties in this regard than does the U.S. military. Repeating (and expecting me to believe) the same old propaganda about how the military is defending my freedom to use my voice sounds a whole lot like a threat to my freedoms--- especially the freedom to think for myself.
Some of you are complaining about the airplanes which happen to be the very thing that protects America. The whiny people are not doing anything at this time to protect this country yet you complain because they made a loud noise and disrupted your peace and quiet. I'm 100% certain, if another country invaded the USA, and bullets were whizzing past your head, you would cry, where is our military and where is our Air Force.
You are some of the most selfish and self centered people on earth. You make noise when you snore and fart but we don't put it in the news and that's more annoying than an occasional sonic boom once a year.
Quit crying about the petty stuff. Oh, I figured it out. You want war, bullets, and noise someplace else. Well to prevent those things from being here in Alaska, they have to train to prevent it from happening in the first place.
Put some ear plugs in and thank God someone even cares about defending your selfish behinds. If terrorists do come to America, I hope they hide at your house. Oops, their already in America!
Would you like ear plugs with your bullet?
Shut up and become an American.
Truth
Perhaps, some have their head in the sand as stated before. Please read American History , It is in ENGLISH! If not for those who defend and have defended our FREEDOM !! Had the U.S. Military not been here, YOU WOULD BE SPEAKING GERMAN ( enough explaining -- now Comprehend )
Ich verstehe.
I live in a contemporary world. I'm looking for a contemporary explanation.
If Hitler had won, first, you wouldn't have the ability to post your comments in a public newspaper like this.
And if you had simply voiced any criticism of the german military, as you do of our armed forces, you would have been shot.
duh
the fact the military (you know, the ones performing the exercises) requires that a pilot be at 30,000 ft before breaking the sound barrier is proof that there are is a potential for health and infrastructure damage from the sonic booms, realize that it is because we dont want our pilots first time out being under fire and them losing there life or downing that very expensive plane to where someone could retrieve it and then pick it apart for its technology. If it didnt break your window though and it only gave you a fright, get over it already. As for turning it into my insurance instead of the base, not a chance. I am not going to put a claim on my insurance so that my rates go up or I get cancelled for a policy at the annual review.
Glad to see our boys (and girls)getting ready before they go put there life on the line!
Huh?
"I want real-life, applies-to-the-current state of our country examples."
duh
http://www.axpdf.com/wake/index.htm
Please Pass this on
BTW, No one has implied here that the military men and women of the past were not honorable, decent people. Some probably weren’t, many probably were.
It's a whole new ballgame now. If you're sticking up for today's military, please know that they are doing a different job, are different people, and are defending, in many ways, a different country than the generations before.
I believe Stan Marsh (South Park) said it best:
"America is like a team. If you can't root for your team, get the *&%$ out of the stadium."
In order to keep deterrence on the minds of our adversaries, it is necessary to train like there is no tomorrow. I will never apologize for ensuring that two-bit dictators like Ahmadinejad, Chavez and Kim Jong Il would think twice about attacking our country.
See? There's an argument that applies. Thanks, Weather_Guy. I'll think about that.
I believe that what you wrote about our military personal of past is as true about todays military as yesterdays. Since Roosevelt made the corralaries to the monroe doctrine after WW1 and we gave or president the power to send our troops to nations all over the world where the voice of the people was not being heard in the name of 'democracy', our troops have had the same mission that due to exposure of media is only now being seen in a broader view. Korea? Vietnam? Bosnia? How many unnamed wars have we had? The secrets our military hold is what keep people sleeping at night because the reality is that those pressures that force us to have the greatest military strength in the world are constantly trying to chip away at our countries breast plate and until they saw there first level of success on our soil (because we have superior AIR strength across an ocean)everyone thought we where untouchable. Germans showed our military that it wasnt impossible and Orson Wells taught the military that the general public couldnt handle the truth.
I live between North Pole and Delta Junction. I had the pleasure of experiencing one of these booms the other day. I thought a bomb had gone off! I was freaking out and I thought my dog was going to have a heart attack. But it lasted just a short time and I realize it is a necessary part of military training.
I think what is being expressed on this board, for the most part, is that if we didn't have our military, past - present - future, our country would be over run by another government - possibly a dictatorship or worse.
We need to give our full support to our military because they insure ALL of the freedoms we get to experience everyday. They put their lives on the line and sacrifice so much to keep our country as free as it is. And they sure aren't paid big bucks to do it.
The military of the past protected us from the threats of the past and our current military protects us today.
Alaska's a big place, you don't HAVE to live near the military bases. The military isn't going to move but YOU can.
Just let them do their jobs. And enjoy the rewards you gain by having such a dilligent military.
If toxic contaminates were poured into the Chena river by the Army would we be expected to accept it as the basis of our protected freedom?
This pilot broke the rules and was repremanded. These rules, like many, are meant to keep civilians safe. No harm, no foul (as of yet). Those of you that say "just deal with it, these pilots go to Iraq for 6 months at a time" (I'm obviously ex Army) are out of touch with the actually military. Installations have strict rules about not affecting the communities they share. This pilot was being unsafe and if something went wrong people may have been hurt.
Refer to the 3rd Amendment if you think that civilians should just take it on the chin when they think that they are jeapordized by their military.
Just curious... would you prefer sonic booms or bombs from another country?
I'm not saying that I would want to hear these booms all the time, but a little inconvenience once in a while compared to something like... oh... say the events of 9 - 11. Can ya guess which one I'd prefer????
Contaminated drinking water is not on the same level as a sonic boom. But I'm willing to bet that if the military contaminated the water they would try to fix it and keep the general population as safe as possible. If the contamination was an accident as a reult of the military doing their job, I would not put any blame on them.
Stuff happens in life. Our military personnel are just doing the best they can to keep us safe in our own country. I personally feel more free and secure in Alaska than in any other place I've been in the lower 48. But let's face it Alaska is not for the insecure, selfish, delicate people.
You might consider Vermont or Connecticut... I think you can pretty much count on no Sonic BOOMs!
Countrygirl-
I hope you're not asking someone to leave Alaska because they don't agree with you. I think we all know how I hate that.
sad but true Imusuallyright is "WRONG" again
IF toxics are dumped into the river would it be a short inconvenience or a long lasting repercussion? IF something would have gone wrong, like what, the plane crashing? THEGoat, I am also ex military, Air Force, and I feel that you are right about needing to make sure that they are safe in there exercises but I disagree with thinking that a sonic boom happening should get more attention, there is a little inconveience with most things, this is one of those. Deal with it.
"Please explain to me how the U.S. military is really protecting my freedom to post criticism."
You seriously can't figure that one out?
We're essentially a free country.
But what would happen if we all-of-a-sudden got rid of our military?
Do you think no one would bother us? Al-Qaida would be able to come in and wipe us out. Iran, Venezuela, China.
If we had no military, we would be invaded by evil. With TRUE evil ruling the land you'd not be able to post criticism against the government on a website.
So...all this air-to-air combat training is prepping our fighters for duty in Iraq?? How's the Iraqi Air Force doing these days? If there are pre-negotiated barriers that pilots aren't allowed to cross supersonic then they need to be reprimanded for disobeying an order. If policies aren't enforced and the general public doesn't raise an issue we might as well let them bed down with our underage daughters and drive drunk through the town mowing down Natives on the south-side GTA style....It all goes back to setting and enforcing standards....black and white...no grey area....
WHY WASN'T THERE A PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT TO WARN US???
I was home alone with my son and we thought a tree had fallen on our house. My husband rushed home and inspected the property, the furnace and the well, but we couldn't figure out what had happened. The next day he was home alone and heard it. He called me to let me know it was a "sonic boom".
I just wish there was a public announcement to warn us about them. I am glad they are training and now that I know what they are they do not bother me. One thing I really like about the interior is that the people here seem to respect and welcome the military more than the other places I have lived. I appreciate their service and presence here VERY MUCH too.
Wow, this is why I hate military people.
They're force fed propaganda that leads them to believe that if they weren't around, "evil" would take over. To what end? Gain a failing economy, with a population that can't sustain growth? (Oh, I'm sure that'll bring out the flag wavers.... )
The fact is that the US is no different than any other country. What makes people believe so strongly that "we're the best!"? Are the people that think that way really so stupid as to believe that other countries don't also think the exact same way?
GIJoe: The fact is, "evil" doesn't exist. Evil is nothing more than a name given to things that people either don't agree with or don't understand.
Realistically, I know that you're just echoing the things you've heard--"Axis of Evil" and "Evil Empire", and other military spew. Of course you're fed that! How else can you be cattled into doing a job that most people won't?
Think about it.
If there's one thing that's universally true, it's that Americans are stupid. Two weekends ago, I heard a group of 5 active duty military boys discussing world policy and politics.
The bravado, stupidity, and testosterone that dripped off of them was shocking. I had to remind myself that I was there to relax in the hot springs, so I didn't say anything.
In talking with the people that I was with, I realized these kids don't know any better. They've been force fed rhetoric and propaganda since they were 12 or 13 years old. One of their comments was something akin to: "Everybody in the US wanted retribution against 'ragheaded sand (racist n-word removed)', and if they didn't they were just as bad as them."
I'm sorry, what? Not only do I not like what you just said, you've also proven yourself to be an idiot.
I didn't want retribution. We got, as a country, what we deserved. Not many people will say that, but it's true. Yes, it is very sad that all those people died. But we got what was coming to us for 50 years of oppression. Think McCarthy. While popular at one time, his views were discarded and ridiculed once investigated.
If we allow McCarthyism internally, is it any wonder that the rest of the world hates us for our recent external behavior?
Something that is different does not mean that it needs to be eradicated, or defended against. You may not like it, it may require change, but we live in an universe that's dynamic.
Again, comments like yours do nothing but prove that military people are nothing but myopic propaganda mongers.
And yes, I know there are those of you out there believe that the military defends my rights to post comments, and that if I don't like it, I should leave. That's fine, continue to think that. In saying so, please recognize the extreme dichotomy in your statement. Rather, let's agree to disagree, rather than creating a cyclical discussion?
Moved to this one, huh?
We didn't "get what we deserved". That is just plain idiocy. And from such a "smart" man. Wow.
I wonder why some so well versed in "science," would refer to and quote their own writings. Does saying it twice prove the intellectual superiority that they feel - at least the date on this "incident" is uniform. I do appreciate the new referencing of military as people now, even if they are all lowly people that serve their country because of childhood propaganda.
These people that work for a living are no worse than someone who can explore mathematics. Go ahead and keep thinking the skewed thoughts though, and enjoying the freedom that military people have provided, even if the premise that they don't do it now is accepted. Freedom ain't free, and it certainly isn't upheld solely through scientific endeavors.
"As has been said before. If you 'hate' Fairbanks, there are two roads leading out of town. Pick one." (Not my words, I'm quoting).
Goose, gander, goose, gander.
GIJoe-
I would have appreciated a response from you that was not blatantly paraphrasing Weather_Guy. I think that's the beginning of propaganda there.
Dana-
Sdoownek said he hated military people, not Fairbanks. The military community is not Fairbanks. Why should he leave Fairbanks, again?
Truth said, "Shut up and become an American."
Class, what's wrong with that statement?
Imusuallyright - If you take the time to read the posts by the gentleman in question, you will possibly see exactly how he views not only the military, but Fairbanks, Fairbanksans, and the country we live in. Without bothering to take the time to quote from him, I was alluding to his prior statements, including those complaining about the myopia of others who tell people to get out if they don't like it. As demonstrated by this quote, he is guilty of the same thing, and thus it is a wee bit contradictory to complain. It's not my statement, Imusuallyright; it's his.
Beyond this, the superficial separation of the military community from the Fairbanks community is asinine. Many of us work in Fairbanks, spend money in Fairbanks, contribute to Fairbanks, have family in Fairbanks, have children that attend schools in Fairbanks, and on. We may not BE Fairbanks, but we are certainly a part of it. And frankly, I get tired enough of his prejudiced attitude toward the military communities that I feel like poking back. Am I telling him to leave? No. It would be nice if he'd rethink his intolerance toward this group of people who may or may not have a different viewpoint than his (read bigotry), a viewpoint that is just as valid. It would be a welcom change, especially since he is so much smarter than the rest of us.
It is pointed out to others when they practice "blind" anything, or are being contradictory on a topic or a stand. When addressed with thought and reason, I know I appreciate the chance to grow. I was offering him this same consideration.
I love it when my statements are not only misconstrued, but also misunderstood.
Dana, it's obvious that your unidimensional mindset doesn't allow you to extrapolate from one situation to another. Therefore, I'm not surprised that you can't see the difference between my statements of Fairbanks (old clothes, old mindset, obesity) and those concerning the military (see above) What you're trying to do is make me out to be incredibly negative about anything, which simply isn't true.
And yes, when one writes something that's interesting, twice quoting it is acceptable. Did you read anything else that was interesting?
Sorry Dana, we did get what we deserved (as far as the jihadists are concerned). We've been meddling in middle eastern politics since WWII. The terrorist attacks and activities are a DIRECT result of that meddling. If you would listen to what they (the jihadists) are saying, you'll hear exactly this statement.
There are two sides to every story - two opposing perspectives involved. According to them we are the EVIL ones. We have been taking their lands and nations by force for the last 60 or so years. They are a little pissed about that, and, since they don't have the military might to attack us directly, they do exactly what they feel they have to in order to get their point across.
You are an open minded person. I hope that you have at least taken a little time to try to understand the perspective of the people upon whom we are enforcing wholesale slaughter and subjegation.
[That being said, I have to agree that sdoownek is obviously arrogant, judgemental, and bigoted.]
Dana-
I honestly have no problem with poking back--as long as you're cool with being poked too. I am confused, though. Are you saying, "As has been said before. If you 'hate' Fairbanks, there are two roads leading out of town. Pick one." is a sdoownek quote? I don't see it in the archived posts.
I actually do read sdoownek's posts. I like them. They say what I think a lot of the time. He can be abrasive and arrogant, but it takes all kinds, huh? His posts get attention and demonstrate another point of view. I think that if you're willing to post your opinion and in that way, you are at least opening yourself up in some manner to criticism. He had to have known what kind of flak he would get and WELCOMED it. Frankly, I worry more about the people who keep their mouths shut so that they don't have to worry about anybody disagreeing with them.
I doubt very seriously that Fairbanks is a target. There are dumb people in every town and regardless of where he lived; he would be just as exasperated with those people in Toledo, for example.
Arrogant? Admittedly.
Judgmental? Probably.
Bigoted? Not so much.
Dana-
You got a lot of attention, lucky girl! ;)
newsreader - I disagree completely. We did not get what we deserved. Just because fanatics believe it was justified, does not make it true - it makes it an opinion. Certain fanatics want to blow up abortion clinics or beat on differing races, religions or sexualities for example - it doesn't make it right or acceptable and I'm certainly not going to agree with their actions. I'm more apt to condemn the action. As you said, there are two opposing perspectives here. You and I will not have a meeting of the minds here, but as always, even though I disagree, I appreciate your stance. You, I'd love to buy a beer. I'd bet I could learn quite a bit.
Imusuallyright - Yes, yes - we all get opinions, and we all get to air them. Go ahead and support bigotry. I don't, I won't, and I'll poke at it when I get the chance. I did quote him, just not off these forums. I am at a disadvantage because I have been upfront about who I am. Being able to examine some of who this man presents himself to be elsewhere was enlightening.
I don't write here to get attention, but obviously when any of us state our opinions in such a public forum, there is the opportunity for others to discuss and/or ridicule it - that is the point. I write here to learn, gain new insights and to offer my perspective so that others can perhaps expand as well. I am willing to re-evaluate some of my thoughts when the argument warrants. The same cannot be said for all.
Sdoownek - My disagreement with your bigotry does not make me "unidimensional" - I would argue the reverse: that your bigotry makes you not only unidimensional, but ignorant as well - maybe you need a refresher on the definitions of prejudice and bigotry? I did not misconstrue, misrepresent or misunderstand anything.
Go back and read what you have written - you are extremely negative about many things and often downright rude to people; the military is just one portion that you patronize - I didn't paint you this way, you did. You have a superior attitude to Fairbanksans and Americans in general, and a great prejudice toward the military. I see clearly your "difference," I just don't think it's quite as great a difference as you want to think it is. That you don't see it proves that your arrogance is unearned and your intelligence is not nearly as impressive as you think it is.
Here I will repeat myself: the military is comprised of people and those people are just like everyone else. You are no worse than, but certainly no better than, those of use that comprise the military community.
(second to last sentence should be "those of us"..for the typo police out there)
Dana --- Thanks. I agree that we probably won't have a meeting of the minds on this. And, I agree that their acts ARE NOT justified (in my mind). However, since you are at least willing to listen, here's some more...
My main point is that we really should be looking at ourselves for at least *SOME* of the blame. To think that the blame for this huge mess lies entirely on the shoulders of those nations in the Middle East is very simplistic, and I dare say, quite arrogant.
A question I like to ask myself is: "What drives a person to such hatred that they would blow themselves up?"
Obviously without the religion, this wouldn't be happening - but beyond that, there must be other triggers that have led us to our current state. I'm sorry, but just "hating our freedom" is not enough in my mind to justify all of the things that are going on. We MUST have done somethings to seriously piss them off!
And, if you can accept that much, then it is not difficult to accept that what we are currently doing can ONLY MAKE THINGS WORSE. It can only fuel the hatred that we've already (indirectly?) cultivated.
Dana,
It's quite a leap to say that I support bigotry. This might be a matter of perspective thing, but I'm pretty sure I'm not more supportive of bigotry than anyone else. Silly example, but I see that you are very intolerant those who you perceive to be bigots. Where should we draw the line?
This is merely a matter of curiosity for me: Do you have a bigger problem with sdoownek's opinions or the way he presents them? Yes, there is a distinction to be made.
@Imusuallyright: Thanks for echoing my thought. Seriously. That's exactly what I was thinking as I read Dana's comments---That it's not the idea as much as the presentation.
@dana: Love me, hate me, like what I have to say or not, you're not going to change the delivery of my opinions. Call me an arse, I'll agree that I can be. You seem to think, incorrectly, that I somehow think myself superior to the military population. Again, I DO NOT THINK THIS. Most people have superior social skills, communication skills, and in general, deal with human beings better than I do. I spend most of my time trapped within my own mind. I fully admit this to be true....... I don't know how I can make that any clearer. I've never said that I'm better than anyone else--in fact, I've said that I'm not.
It's your perception that leads you to believe that. I'm not responsible for your perception of a situation, you are. Rather than trying to teach me about the meaning of a word, perhaps you should recognize that there's a vast difference between being tolerant and voicing dissatisfaction. Giving voice to an opinion that's not held widely or supported by all isn't "evil". Reference the events on November 5th, 1605.
But, you should know all of these things from reading some of the other stuff that I've written. It's not like it's all that hard to figure out, eh?
newsreader - Thanks for more of your thought processes here. I am still in disagreement. ;)
Imusuallyright - From what I have read, sdoownek is a bigot and presents a superior air and a bigoted perspective when it comes to the military community. To say that you like his posts and agree with many of them suggests to me support of this attitude. I apologize if I misunderstood what exactly you were supporting. Yes, I am intolerant when it comes to prejudicial viewpoints - and I would hope that when I am seen to be voicing such nonsense, that someone would call me on it. Wouldn't you? Supporting free speech is one thing, supporting bigoted commentary itself in the guise of supporting free speech is something else altogether. If someone came online and invited all of the minority populations or all of the LBGT folk (for example) to leave town because they are dissatisfied somehow with that "group", would that opinion be supported by rational beings? Or would it be called what it is - bigotry?
Sdoownek - I understand that there is a "vast difference between being tolerant and voicing dissatisfaction" - but that is not what you are doing. To suggest that you are merely "voicing dissatisfaction" rather than voicing intolerance with the military as you invite them to leave town repeatedly means one of two things - you either think the rest of us incapable of processing what you put out there to be chewed upon, or you have a serious lack of understanding of the differences between intentions and actuality. Intentions mean very little and have little effect.
If you refuse to change your delivery, as is your right, then there is a slight chance that people are going to think that you believe you are better than those you are talking down to - this is your presentation. Is living in your head a reason for "inferior" social skills - or is it an excuse to minimize people? You obviously have intelligence, which could be used to better your "people" skills and thus sway people to your viewpoint, but this is of course, your decision, and I don't see a desire on your part to change - again, your right.
You are absolutely right about one thing; you are not in control of my reactions; I am. In the end, it is you who is in control of your presentation and it's your presentation that leads to perceptions, while not necessarily reactions. Language has power, as you well know. As you continue to present opinion in a manner that can be construed as prejudiced, condescending or bigoted, I will continue to call you on it. And you will continue to make of it what you will.
I am not responsible for what other people perceive! I will not change my communication method because other people are unable to understand the meaning behind the method. The bottom line is this: It's not important for me to sway people--only to have my opinion read. If it's fully understood and you still disagree, then I welcome your disagreement. But as is often the case, people are unable to get over the delivery and therefore miss the "meat" of the opinion.
Again, that's who I am. Don't try to impose your communication method upon me--it won't work.
As you can tell, I've tired of this conversation, as well as the line of thought. This will be my last post on this subject, as it has degraded into personal realms that have no bearing on any subject.
For the record, Dana, sdwoonek did not invite anyone to leave town. He said he wished certain people would be gone, but drew the line at asking them to leave.
I have been “invited” to leave Fairbanks, Alaska, and the U.S. many times because I had a difference of opinion. (How many times have you read something to the effect of: If you don't like it, you can leave!)? That sure seems like bigotry and unwillingness to be tolerant by your definition above, and I have never seen you call anyone on it. (Perhaps you have, but I have not seen it.) Those statements certainly conflict with the ideals that we are taught the U.S. was founded upon and the freedoms that we ALL, even civilians, work hard to protect.
Were you not the one with the theoretical mind-ray? I think there may have been some truth to the statement that you wished you could make everyone bend to your will--- because we all do sometimes on some level. Had I been a touchier girl, I would have taken offense to that statement. It devalues people in so many ways to try to bend them to your will—to not let them form their own opinions—but I bet there are times (maybe like this) when you still wish you could do it. There are moments when I wish I had the authority to make the people who annoy me leave Fairbanks, but thankfully, I don't ---and they get to stay and keep annoying me.
I'm not interested in this becomming another "Winter Soldiers" and I think I've said what I want to, so I'll bow out also.
Anyway, I saw a used mind ray on E-Bay last week...:)
becoming.
Personally, as you may have noticed, I've got no problems at all trying to "bend" people to think as I do.
I'll be checking e-bay here in a couple minutes!
I've noticed. One day, you'll come around to "influencing" people instead.
Don't outbid Dana!
To All:
The comeback some have been waiting for!!! The Yukon Territory has just taken Tok and they are making their way to Delta and Fairbanks is on the list!!!
Sounds funny...no? I wonder what the inhabitants of the Aleutians thought way back when they were actually attacked by the Japanese?
I bet they were told:
1. It will never happen.
2. We are too far away for any foreign army to ever reach here.
3. No one has enough guts to attack the U.S.A.
Sounds similar to: The Twin Towers will never be taken down by terrorists high-jacking a plane, or two!!!
So remember as we question what rights and freedoms our military protects, that many before us had the same thoughts. Don't worry, keep asking, and as history always repeats itself, I am sure you will find out someday when some intentional tragedy hits close or closer to your home.
I know, Blah, Blah, Blah...but just ask anyone who was in New York City on 9/11...I am sure they can tell you all about it in a much better way then I possibly ever could.
It can be said that in the game of deterrence, a good defence.......well, you know, finish it the way you like it...
I wish this was more of an opinion, but it is just the way it is.
Imusuallyright: The person quoted in Dana's comment was Sdoownek. Just not on this thread. There's an undertone that he's aware of here. What we're not privy to on the NM is the cussing and bigotry found in mirror posts on other sites.
What whiners complain about sonic booms?
If you don't like airplane noise then don't live where there are Air Force bases.
I used to live near the Air Force academy and it killed me when people there complained about the tow plane noise!
Some people just need a lot of attention (and therapy) I guess.
Imusuallyright - You are attributing a mind-ray to the wrong person, my friend - never came from me. You are deluded if you think statements of opinion and discussion are not forms meant to sway the opinions of others. It's a sharing of information; the more information one has, the more weight their opinion and the easier it is to form an educated opinion of your own. If you don't see bigotry toward the military in the gentleman's opinions, then you are seeing what you want to, justifying it perhaps, because you agree with him.
I have not, to my knowledge, ever said I hated anyone or any group of people on this thread or any other (please, if you can find it, share it with me and I will rethink), and as a member of a military family and a member of the FAIRBANKS community, I take great offense at blind hatred with no reason other than they have a different belief set behind them. I will say absolutely that I don't understand bigotry, discrimination or hatred toward a group of people. Your tolerance level is your business.
Sdoownek doesn't like anyone calling him on his ridiculous and obnoxious attitude and rude opinions and personal attacks, which is why he abandons ship when it happens. The comment of his that I originally responded to was pretty off-topic to begin with and had no bearing on the "realm" of discussion that preceded it, but God-forbid anyone else follow suit.
I don't jump on all bigotry because some of it is so ridiculous in nature and presentation that I don't take it seriously and discount it . (My momma always said "Consider the source, honey!") I took her advice, so when someone who is always telling us plebes how smart he is and how stupid we are is just screaming for a response - exactly his point, as has been said. I am no more "imposing" myself on him than he is on the rest of us.
http://newsminer.com/users/danav/comment...
March 31 4:53 pm
@Dana: OK. You're right. I'm wrong. About everything. I should change the way that I communicate so that you're happy. Please, remind me of this in the future, so that I can be perfect, just like you.
Love, flowers and peace,
sdoownek.
Dana-
I'm a smart girl. I'm a scientist. I expect more from people.
Let's just say this: If you can stick up for your demographic group because you understand where they're coming from, it would be fair to let me do the same for mine-- especially since I don't perceive the bigotry you do.
Perhaps you see bigotry in those statements because you feel it is directed toward you and your "peeps". That's fair, but don't make assumptions about me because I don't see things the same way that you do.
Wow, this thread has come to be pretty extensive. I'm not even going to touch the "did-we-deserve-anything" bit except to say that I think the events of the last 6 years ought to cause to take a hard look at our actions over the last 50.
There is a larger-than-normal Air Force exercise in progress and there were dozens of complaints about sonic booms. The Air Force says it WANTS to hear about these issues. And if sonic booms shake your house, scare your dog, and come as a complete surprise, that seems grounds for a complaint (complaining seems to be taken as pejorative by many posters; not all complaining is automatically bad).
This doesn't mean that the military shouldn't train or should never fly their aircraft at supersonic speeds. It doesn't mean that people who complain hate the military, want someone to invade ("TRUE evil" - the best laugh of my day!), or should have to leave the community, the state, or the country. Perhaps, the Air Force should take it for what it is--community feedback--and consider how and if they might do things differently in the future.
Imusuallyright - I stand corrected. I guess the "mind-ray" was mine, from a post where I stood up for you as someone asked if everyone hated you for ignorance (let me quote myself from that message: "I say keep on keepin' on, imusuallyright. I didn't see you say anything ignorant here - I think there was just a failure to have the minds meet.". Not very hateful, though is it? However, calling a group of people an "infestation," could be considered such, yes? Apply "infestation" or "this is why I hate ___" to another group of people (bicyclists? state employees? waitresses? homosexuals?) and see how well you like the taste on your tongue.
sdoownek - I addressed both your communication style AND the opinions that it conveys. I never claimed perfection - I have a lot to learn, but unlike others, I am not out here saying I'm smarter than everyone else, and I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong. I'll claim sarcasm. I'll claim frustration. But I don't claim hatred or bigotry.
Imusuallyright - Where exactly did I call "scientists" an infestation and say that I'd welcome their departure? I was discussing sdoownek, not his demographic or professed profession. Nor was I referencing all of his "peeps."
If a military person came online and said how much he hated the infesting, unwashed masses of Esterites, I would call them on it - because it lacks intelligence and is an offensive argument, nothing more. It would represent their "group," and by extension me, poorly.
sdoownek hates military people. He wants us to leave, referencing us as an infestation. He chooses to equate us with cockroaches, and you want me to be silent? I'm failing to grasp your logic leap here...explain it to me, scientist, so that I too, can understand why this is ok and I should just let it be?
I, like you, am a "smart girl". I am calling another "smart person" on his hatred and bigotry. Pity more won't do the same.
Dana-
If you take a look at this thread and the "Booming Business" article, you will note that I have not defended sdoownek's style/delivery/choice of words. That doesn't mean I don't think some of is humorous. What we choose to find personally entertaining and publicly appropriate are two different things...but what he's saying (not how he says it) makes sense to me and he does have a right to say it. Again, I ask you: Do you have more of a problem with the opinion or the way it's presented?
Sad fact: Hate exists. To pretend it does not or even should not won't get us very far. One step toward becoming a more tolerant human being is acknowledging that you hate or are intolerant of something or someone and figuring out why. If we're all capable of forming our own opinions, why is it so bad to go through this process publicly? Festering quietly in our own intolerance or hate seems a whole lot more dangerous. Opening ourselves up to criticism automatically opens us up to another point of view.
Something you did not quote from yourself (same comment) is "I personally enjoy that we aren't all cookiecutter people.” Dana, we are all trying to figure ourselves and this world out. We just have different ways of doing it. I guess I'm asking you to be tolerant of that fact.
Bigot: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionar... See: “My opinion is that I welcome the day the bases close and the military infestation is eradicated from Fairbanks,” and “Wow, this is why I hate military people,” courtesy of sdoownek.
More sdoownek: “But as is often the case, people are unable to get over the delivery and therefore miss the "meat" of the opinion.”… okay, now Candi: Just because we don’t want to chew on his “meat” doesn’t mean it was missed in his delivery, it just happens to be rancid.
So, imusuallyarightscientist, what am I misperceiving? What exactly do you agree with? His putrid attitude toward anyone not on his side of town? “Really, I'm comfortable not knowing that these type of people exist. Just another reason that I'm glad I live on this side of town.” His disgusting declaration that “[we] got, as a country, what we deserved,” would hold water if we were somewhere unjustly harming terrorists. Give me a break. How ‘bout this one: “If there's one thing that's universally true, it's that Americans are stupid.” I guess we’re all just stupid. You. Me. Him. Dana. President Bush. All the military. All members of American Mensa. Everyone. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.
No one should be expected to be tolerant of bigotry. Perhaps calling him on it is an effort to get him to see it? Hate does exist. It is an appropriate defensive emotion. Used inappropriately, it is a weapon. Tolerance should be practiced in confronting one's own biases and bigoted opinions when relating to another person or trying to foster one's own growth. Tolerance and indulgence are not the same. Burying your head in the sand under the guise of tolerance or the camouflage of semantics is irresponsible.
I dunno. I’m not a scientist. I’m just ausuallyrightwaitress.
Dana-
I guess I should make it clear that I'm not asking you to "let it be" or to be "silent" and I never have. I'd like you to understand why your criticism is part of the process.
I did not infer that you had asked any group to leave.
I won't participate in this discussion with you if you are willing to engage in word twisting. I have tried very hard to be fair when quoting you or referencing your previous posts. Please afford me the same courtesy.
Dana-
I guess I should make it clear that I'm not asking you to "let it be" or to be "silent" and I never have. I'd like you to understand why your criticism is part of the process.
I did not infer that you had asked any group to leave.
I won't participate in this discussion with you if you are willing to engage in word twisting or logic leaping. I have tried very hard to be fair when quoting you or referencing your previous posts. Please afford me the same courtesy.
Imusuallyright - Why are you attempting to hold me to a different standard here? Can you find the hatred, bigotry and vitriol in the things that I have stated here? I can find all sorts of "intolerance" from him. You are asking me to be tolerant of an intolerant person who practices bigotry (intolerance regarding a GROUP of people). I just can't do it. Failure on my part? Perhaps, but it seems more dangerous to not contradict someone who spews hatred - obviously he's already festering in it (see candi's post above?).
I have answered your question. More than once. I don't like his opinion OR his delivery. I doubt that I would agree with his opinions even if they were presented in a more palatable manner and I'm still trying to find a tasty way to swallow "infestation" and "I hate ___".
Let me turn it back on you here. You haven't answered MY question or participated in the exercise I offered above: "However, calling a group of people an "infestation," could be considered such, yes? Apply "infestation" or "this is why I hate ___" to another group of people (bicyclists? state employees? waitresses? homosexuals?) and see how well you like the taste on your tongue." Convenient to ignore it while asking me for tolerance.
Not wanting a cookiecutter world doesn't mean I should eat burnt cookies. Maybe offering a new perspective, one opposite of bigotry, is the responsible thing to do.
(This comment was removed by the Newsminer.com staff. Please see our User Agreement for further information.)
no names, newsreader... safety first. :)
A number of you could pay a little closer attention to this line in the policy :
• baseless personal attacks on any other user ... or otherwise threatening, or baiting someone into such comments.
Umm, I'm sorry (I guess?) Its not like I have insider info or anything...
Certainly didn't mean to give away anyone's identity.
[If that truly is his name, then he's not trying very hard to protect it, now is he?]
Oh well. Once again, sorry. Didn't realize I was doing anything wrong there. I'm the last person that wants to have identities revealed!
Oh, is that what you thought that was? Ok. Sorry. That's certainly not how I meant it. I believe that he's said (more or less) the same things about himself. Anyhow. Sorry again.
I didn't take it as baiting or anything like that... I just know there's a reason I don't want the general public knowing more t