News-Miner Editorial
Booming business
Air Force’s sonic bursts come with the territory
Published Saturday, April 12, 2008
Digg
delicious
Facebook
Mixx
Reddit
Stumble It!Sonic booms aren’t the problem.
The problem is the misplaced noise coming from those who have been complaining about the sonic booms caused by some of the aircraft participating in the Red Flag military exercises under way out of Eielson Air Force Base.
It’s astonishing to hear that the Air Force has received what is being described as an unprecedented number of complaints about the sonic booms. It’s astonishing because the complaints are pretty much selfish in their nature. They are all about “me” and what bothers “me.”
Sonic booms are terribly loud. There’s no argument there. For some people, especially small children, they can even be frightening. They can unnerve animals.
They are, however, extremely brief and occur during daytime hours under guidelines the Air Force must follow. They also occur rarely. It just so happens that this is one of those rare times. People have grown accustomed to their absence, and now a larger-than-typical exercise is underway.
Inquiring about the need for the noise or asking that the Air Force give some advance public notice when booms are likely to occur is one thing. Communication is important between neighbors. Expecting the Air Force to muffle or reduce its training activity for our convenience is another.
The problem with some complaints is that they are likely from people who also benefit from the Air Force’s presence here. It’s neither right nor logical to roll out a welcome mat for the Air Force and the money and jobs that come with it — remember the “Save Eielson” campaign of just a couple years ago when Fairbanks nearly lost the base? — and at the same time get cranky over a few sonic booms.
And there’s also the matter of perspective. Some of the pilots who have come up here to participate in the current Red Flag exercise are scheduled to be sent to Iraq later this year. With that knowledge, a few sonic booms occurring during pre-war training should seem quite inconsequential to the complainers.
The Air Force has taken measures, in coordination with the Federal Aviation Administration, to minimize the sonic booms’ effect on the population below.
The sonic grousing needs to be muffled.
Community Discussion
Newsminer.com doesn't necessarily condone the comments here, nor does it review every post. Read our full user's agreement.
That's your opinion, and you're most entitled to it.
My opinion is that I welcome the day the bases close and the military infestation is eradicated from Fairbanks.
sdoownek....You are an ungrateful ass. Walk just one day in a soldier's shoes and experience what our military men and women do everyday to protect our country. I am not in the military nor have I ever been, but I greatly appreciate their support.
It is a great and noble idea to live in a world where the military are not needed. Back in reality though, they will be here as long as Alaska has resources and you can fly to anywhere on the planet in under 10 hours from here. They call that a pipe dream, cause you must be high to think it.
"The Air Force has taken measures, in coordination with the Federal Aviation Administration, to minimize the sonic booms’ effect on the population below."
Yeah, right. If they wanted to minimize the effect of sonic booms on the population, they would use their designated training grounds away from the population center of the interior. The Air Force could generate sonic booms over populated areas anywhere in the country. And you can expect the number of complaints to increase as the population of the burrough increases.
As long as these men and women are training, they are capable of doing their mission- it doesn't matter what the branch of service. The people who are complaining ought to be grateful that their mission is an integral part of maintaining freedom, which includes the right and ability to be able to voice complaints when they are "unhappy" about something. For some people that includes about everything.
"That's your opinion, and you're most entitled to it."
Just remember who it is that protects that right.
I can't begin to tell you how much I love Alaska. How much I love Fairbanks. How much I love the job I have and the people I work with. I have loved this area since the first time I lived here in 1970-73. Both adventures to Alaska have been because; 1.) My father was in the Army 2.)My husband is in the Army. I understand not everyone in the military is respectful of the community they live in, but there are far more of us who ARE than are not. I'm sorry sdoownek views us as an "infestation". Perhaps, he/she, meant the military machine and not the military family...either way...it's just too bad.
(This comment was removed by the Newsminer.com staff. Please see our User Agreement for further information.)
(This comment was removed by the Newsminer.com staff. Please see our User Agreement for further information.)
starman-
You should probably re-read the "user agreement" for participating in these comments.
Wow, do people really have nothing better to do than whine about this? I just don't get it. Yeah it's startling, but it is also awesome, in the truest sense of the word.
Sdnk, you really live in your own little world, don't you? The military plays a huge role in the economy of Fairbanks. Much of this town would simply fold if the military chose not to grace us with their presence any longer, but given your comments on other topics, I realize that you have very little grasp of economics, so I'm not surprised at such ignorance regarding the military role in our community.
Carry on USAF, most of us are grown up enough to not cry about a big scary boom now and then.
Geeez - some people will complain that their ice cream is cold!
QUITCHERBELLYACHIN!
If you don't like it, you can leave! There are plenty of us in Alaska that will hold the door open for you!
GOD BLESS AMERICA!
You seen Top Gun? They are playing war games and they don't have time I can bet to see if they are over houses or raw land when they are evading being "shot".
If you think it's loud, imagine being on Eielson when they are doing these exercises....it's LOUD out there but it's only for two weeks.
You know, I might be more apt to support the military if I didn't have to constantly put up with their holier-than-thou manner. (Holy is a moot point, here, BTW.)
I’d also be more apt to support sdoownek’s comments if they were less arrogant. I agree with the message, but not the delivery. But, hey, it’s getting your attention. Are you listening?
The Air Force was here long before most Interior residents were even born.
A few little sonic booms are nothing to worry about- I actually like 'em.
This is much ado about nothing.
icyfeet: "The military plays a huge role in the economy of Fairbanks. Much of this town would simply fold if the military chose not to grace us with their presence any longer..."
While I won't take a position on the sonic booms (not having heard or felt them), nor on the military presence in Fairbanks, I will say that the economic argument is unconvincing. If the military's presence is in itself a blessing, then the boost they provide to our economy doubles the blessing. If their presence is a curse, then our accepting them for the money they bring is a devil's bargain.
To make the argument that we should be grateful to the military for boosting our economy seems cynical, and it devalues them by reducing them to a municipal meal-ticket. If you wish to praise the military, please do so on other grounds.
Much ado about nothing, huh?
My fellow citizens have stated that their houses are shaking, that glasses have been broken in their houses, and that windsheilds have been broken in their cars. This is more than nothing.
I don't particularly like to criticize our military men, but what I see on these pages is bordering on blind patriotism. Since when is damaging civilian property ok for our military?
Many people say we should just accept it and shut up. I'm sorry, but I disagree for two reasons.
First, this is a slippery slope to start on. How far can the argument "We are at war and therefore must ignore any harm the military does to our civilian population" going to take us? I'm sorry, but the military should respect our civilian population in times of peace AND of war.
Secondly, I reject the statements that this war is somehow protecting my freedom. As I've said before, I challenge anyone to show me proof that Iraq had imminent plans to invade American soil. Until you can do that, I can reasonably claim that my freedom was not threatened by Iraq.
However, I can certainly say that my freedoms are being threatened by my government due to the war. And, the comments on this story only prove that I am correct - the general population is willing to give up freedoms (to the point of having the military damage personal property) so we can drastically increase the hatred of the Middle East towards America by invading and occupying a sovereign nation with the intent to steal their oil.
I am totally against the war in Iraq. I think we should have invaded Saudi Arabia. I am a ten year vet of the Air Force with middle east experience back in the 70s. When I hear a sonic boom, or a military jet flys over, to me it is the sound of freedom!! I live/work along a runway for half the year in Galena that used to have jets flying from it regularily. I work on Ft. WW and jets use that runway daily, it still is....the sound of freedom. We OWN the skies militarily worldwide. They only pilots that are close to our pilots in competence are the Israelis (whom I also dislike hugely). Our AF will be a leading edge in keeping us free in a worldwide conflict. Quit bellyaching about a sonic boom once in a RARE while!!
I totally agree with Yukonjohn. Its rare to hear.. the sonic boom. Also why are yall complaining about it now? Red flag has always been a thing for Eielson AFB. You live by the base.... if you don't like it move away. That base has been here longer then most of us. Those fighters that you hear are training with ours... they are going to IRAQ to save our men and women on the ground. Sonic booms are sound of freedom! "Freedom is not free" -- Korean War Memorial
Newsreader, I dare you to prove your comment that the sonic booms have broken windows in houses in the interior due to this specific military exercise. The sonic booms which have been heard within the borough have been no where strong enough to cause any physical property damage. I live in the area affected and have heard them and they are just not that powerful. And your comment that vehicle windshields have been broken is ludicrous. These statement show that you are willing to make up anything to support your point. Don't make statements you can not prove.
Out military is worth any inconvenience these sonic booms may cause. It funny that we get more earthquakes in the interior than sonic booms and yet you are not complaining about them, even though many of them cause more shaking and noise.
I re-read the "User agreement." My bad, sorry.
akflygirl-
Your juxtaposed statements contradict each other: “they are going to IRAQ to save our men and women on the ground. Sonic booms are sound of freedom! "
Saving U.S. men and women in Iraq does not represent freedom to the good citizens on the ground--here in the U.S.
northernfrontier --
taken from http://newsminer.com/news/2008/apr/11/so...
corinne 4/11/2008, 5:31 a.m.
OMG
The sonic booms weren't just "heard," they, especially the first one, rock my house like no other. The kids and animals and I were all there...I had glasses break!
MBinAK 4/11/2008, 1:31 p.m.
...The sonic boom I heard just an hour ago today cracked the windshield on my mother's car. It shook my older house and I heard cracking inside the walls...
I DID NOT MAKE ANYTHING UP. I SIMPLY RESTATED WHAT OTHER CIVILIAN CITIZENS HAVE POSTED ON THIS WEBSITE.
DON'T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS BUDDY. THEY JUST MAKE AN A$$ out of you and umption.
An earthquake cannot be avoided. However, in the largest state with the least population in the nation (probably world) I find it impossible to believe that they couldn't find a location to train that would not be damaging civilian's property.
icyfeet: I welcome the military to leave, as well as the economic detriment it would bring. I simply don't like them being here. I don't support their rhetoric, nor do I beleive that they defend my freedom. The last true war that the united States engaged in was more than 60 years ago. Think about that for a while....try to apply logic before you respond.....
As for the economics and my grasp of them, you should know that my industry wouldn't feel it. Yes, that's incredibly egocentric and selfish--I fully recognize that, and simply don't care.
What is your industry that would not be affected by the military departing sdoownek? I am not saying right or wrong just yet, but I dont see how that statement could be true, please explain.
Depending on where you are at, the sonic booms can be quit powerful, but I can't see them breaking anything. Every boom I have heard in the last few years startled me and anyone else I talked to about it, not just children.
I am glad this issue has been raised because it helps to keep things in check. The military should not receive carte blanche in the name of freedom, patriotism, or the Iraq war. I say that even though I am a military veteran. However, I wonder if these booms are done out of pure necessity or instead mostly an ego trip…
Thank you, Joe! That's all that I was trying to say! Thank you!
I have lived in North Pole for the last 11 years, and I can't ever remember hearing sonic booms before this exercise. I have no problem with the AF going supersonic. I just think it would have been nice if they would have let people know in advance. The first couple really startled my family. Now, we are used to them. If it is such a big deal to the AF that they have a "hotline" set up, it would have been just as easy to have put out a press release saying that planes would be going supersonic during this Red Flag and to expect some extra noise.
One more:
"The sonic grousing needs to be muffled." Does that sound a little oppressive to anyone else?
I have to agree. It is nearly scientifically impossible for these sonic booms to shatter glass unless they are conducted at very low levels. The change in pressure caused by these sonic booms is only a few pounds per square foot, about the same pressure you feel on an elevator dropping about three floor - only much faster. Additionally, since these booms are created at high altitudes, the chance of them breaking anything is next to nothing, much less something such as a car window. Actually, the first time the sound barrier was broken was when someone cracked a whip. The crack you hear (Remember Margaret on 'Mash' cracking her whip?) is the sound barrier breaking. If these jets start flying tree top level breaking the sound barrier - THEN we would warrant taking a peek at our vehicles out in the parking lot.
Imusuallyright -- Couldn't agree more
Wanna buy a horse?
We were here. We cleaned up the stemware that fell off its upside-down stemware holder thingy. We were in the same room when it fell.
Worse, though, the booms aren't just about broken glass, jeapordized foundations, and stuff.
I almost had a kid trampled by a horse once because of this.
The booms are unpredictable and sudden. Most are tolerably distant. At utterly unpredictable times, a huge, foundation-shaking, glass-breaking, horse-freaking-out one occurs.
The air force should go to the less populated areas for sonic booming.
Imusuallyright and newsreader-
It sure does! Further, and worse, on Thursday's editorial and the article "A Gas Line is Pitched..." I suggested people go to Stefan Milkowsi's blog.
Stefan wrote about Huggins and Stedman and another (I forget) coming out of closed door meetings in Lyda Green's office. Oh yeah, the other was the main Alaska Conoco Phillips guy.
Stefan witnessed this. He was there. He wrote that he asked the CP guy if they were discussing the gas line. The guy answered "What do you think I do?" Paraphrasing, but that's darn close, and certainly better than just the gist.
Stefan wrote that the rumor in Juneau was the congressional delegation was in on it before the Big Oil announcement.
He finished with "Stay tuned..."
After I commented on the blogs (there were two), I went back last night and only those blogs of Stefan's were removed. Completely. No reference to them anywhere.
So, relating back to this article and IUR and NR, yes, the FDNM is more oppressive than we even thought.
Most of the people who are complaining about the sonic booms most likely moved here after Eielson Air Force Base and Fort Wainwright were here. Maybe that's something you should have thought about before choosing to live here. I say if you don't like it, you should just leave. And to Sdwoonek, way to stay classy as always.
Thanks corinne-
I'll check that out... now I'll never get out of the house today. ;)
Newsreader,
I read the posts you listed, hardly proof of anything. And to be exact I did not refer to glasses broken, I said windows and windshields.
If toxic contaminates were poured into the Chena river by the Army would we be expected to accept it as the cost of our protected freedom?
This pilot broke the rules and was repremanded. These rules, like many, are meant to keep civilians safe. No harm, no foul (as of yet). Those of you that say "just deal with it, these pilots go to Iraq for 6 months at a time" (I'm obviously ex Army) are out of touch with the actual military. Installations have strict rules about not affecting the communities they share. This pilot was being unsafe and if something went wrong people may have been hurt.
Refer to the 3rd Amendment if you think that civilians should just take it on the chin when they think that they are jeapordized by their military.
Imusuallyright-
That's the problem!
There's nothing to check out now!
You can check my comments on the two articles from Thursday, but I didn't go into detail.
After this, I won't be surprised if the FDNM removes my references to Stefan's blogs--yeah, the ones that aren't there anymore.
All he's got on there now is typical FDNM pro-Big Oil pablum!
It's worse than I thought.
And I understand the "addiction."
However, if the FDNM keeps this up, there will be few enough interesting comments left to read.
As someone said last night (when i was here), "it's their playground."
Such a good thing...too bad it must conform to such PC standards.
northernfrontier --
I never said anything about windows. You said that, improperly quoting what I had said. Making those assumptions that you seem to love.
If you want to assume that other people are lying, then I guess that's your choice. Personally, I don't just assume that other's posts are lies...
@JB:
Science.
I should expand that answer, I think.
Science is an industry that's driven primarily by mathematics. Secondary, tertiary, and quaternary are curiosity, education, and technology.
The people at the forefront of their respective field will work independent of the surrounding economic situation. Funding will always exist if you're the only person that can do a task.
It's hard to relate that to a blue-collar world. Anybody can weld. It's possible to teach a 17 year-old how to wire an electrical outlet. Just about anyone with an average cognitive ability can learn the steps needed to fuel an airplane.
But you can't force a person to ask, (neverminding answer) difficult questions.
Most of my motivation isn't extrinsic, either tangible or intangible. People require motivation to perform any action that isn't purely physiological. It seems to be that there are far too few people who do things (or don't do things) just for the sake of doing (or not doing) them. In other words, it's easy to answer the question "why do you work?" with "to eat."
I study the the mathematical nature of time, space and reality.
Is the only dynamism in doing anything provided by the objects involved? Are space and time the logical consequences of non-imaginary mathematical truth? Is what you do governed by your reality? If you're limited in thought to what you think could exist, then why do you exist? Is life, all life, carbon based? What happens if our ruleset behind defining life is incorrect? Does space really exist as we perceive it? Does time?
Mathematically prove it does or does not, keeping in mind that Everything, science, space, change, structure, physics, cosmology, cosmogony and everything are all limited by the epistemological constraints of mathematics.
To answer the question? No, I really won't feel the impact of the military leaving. Mostly because I'd really like to think that I'm not limited by the lack of a theory that defines quantum gravity.
Now, does that mean I'll continue to exist in my current position if the economy of Fairbanks collapses? No, probably not---but not for the reasons that one might immediately think.
So, that said, does anybody know how to lay out a foundation for a shed? I don't want to pour concrete, rather build this building directly on the ground. I've got plans, but just don't know where to start......
It's about perception, eh?
Newsreader
My intent was simply to ask you to show proof of personal property damage. I am not saying the posts you referred to are lies, simply that they are not proof of any property damage being directly caused by the sonic booms.
Paul Adaiak-
That’s a nice, balanced line of reasoning there.
The military in Alaska is simply terrorizing our last great wilderness. If the military budget were to be used for environmental and energy problems our earth that we live on would be a much safer and happier planet.
You can bomb the world into pieces, but you can not bomb the world into peace.
http://www.axpdf.com/wake/index.htm
News miner removed the discussion on other article about Sonic booms .
Please pass this on to all
Holy Cow!
No one is causing anyone any physical danger(theGoat)
The Bases have been here longer than most of the people here.(around 1940)
You are being protected every second of everyday, just because you are not aware of it does not mean it does not happen. The last time our military defended your freedom- everyday! they have done so much for communities, Katrina, they were sent to Airports across the nation for security after 9/11, everytime someone or something invades our airspace, the Airforce is there!
The pure fact that they exist and are as trained as they are defends our freedom! do you not think that if our military was not here and up to par that other Countries would not try to take advantage of us.
You few that think that our Military Bases should pack up and go, that they are an infestation, wow! how ungrateful & inconsiderate. it's to bad that our military can not pick and choose who's freedom to defend. If there is anyone that is an infestation it is you, and you are the one that should leave- Try somewhere in the East! The FAR EAST!
shy-
I hope you're not asking anyone to leave Alaska or the U.S. because they don't agree with you. (We all know how much I hate that.) Think of the implications-- the things the U.S. stands for would be oblierated. Think, think, think, please.
I think that if you or anyone that does not stand by the men and women that put their life on the line to defend, protect, support people that can not do it for themselves should do exactly that- leave. I do not care if you agree with them, or who sent them there or even why they are there, but you should stand by them. to call them an infestation, to discredit what they do and what they stand for. these Men and Women do everything they can to protect you and your rights as did their fathers and their fathers. If you are to blind to see it maybe you should go somewhere that does not have those rights!
how about we use the sound and power of complaining about the sonic boom and change it over to complaining about the cost of fuel. We need help!
UM...the military is not here to help th economy. It does, but that's not why they are here. Alaska is prime land for keeping Asia in check. Even if there were no people here, America needs military installations here. The military is the ONLY reason America is what it is. Military is not an option.
Nice try, shy. I'm not convinced... and I'm still a good American.
Actually the sonic booms bring back some great memories for me. We used to live in Nevada stationed next to Nellis AFB. I was able to lie out on my patio and watch the Thunderbirds practice and what an awesome site. My husband himself was one of the founding fathers of the Stealth Fighter and I'm quite proud of him and our pilots then and now.
Ok so we have a few sonic booms at least we can say life is never dull around Alaska.
We have not removed the comments from the sonic boom story. The story is on the Most Popular list on the right side of the home page and in Friday's Local section. None of Stefan's blogs have been removed. All are listed under Capital Focus in the blogs section.
http://newsminer.com/weblogs/capital-foc...
If you can't find them, please let me know. internet@newsminer.com
Thanks Julie-
I saw Stefan's comment and--I guess--"refound" it.
I also couldn't see where any of the posts on booming were gone.
Since you're watching, why not let posts continue on Police Reports? Come on, as people have pointed out, it's all public record anyway.
MamaSan-
Thanks. You got your wish!
SO...
Go to Stefan's blog and read "Major Announcement" (it's called something like that) from a few days ago.
"If you don't like it, then you need to leave."
Do the people that say such things really realize the meaning of what they're saying, or are they _REALLY_ that myopic?
If you've thought that lack of
The Constitution of the United States.
The Amendments to the Constitution.
The Articles of Confederation.
The Declaration of Independence.
Not only reading, but studying, learning and extrapolating....
sdoownek, I imagine people say nasty & emotionally based comments to you because you come off as snarky, snobbish & very elitist. While I realize this doesn't bother you, you should be expecting it as I also think this is an attitude you have cultured. You have previously mentioned that you had times of financial hardship & weren't always a 'scientist' so I can only deduce that you weren't always so cold. Have you considered tempering you distaste? People might get more out of what you say in that case.
I suspect those who make those statements are merely repeating what they've heard without putting a whole lot of thought into what they're saying.
For example, shy said (twice in rapid succession) that the military is defending our freedom (presumably to live in the U.S. and to disagree with the government/military), but if you disagree with the military, you really shouldn't be a U.S. citizen. Doesn’t that seem incredibly naïve/contradictory/hypocritical--- or at least poorly thought out?
I see those statements paired often and I wonder about the real reason for making them.
(This comment was removed by the Newsminer.com staff. Please see our User Agreement for further information.)
Maybe he had it coming, but newsgeek, you're not setting a very good example. Please, demonstrate for us all how you'd like to be addressed.
For those wondering, profanity, even "disguised" profanity ($ instead of S or asterisks) will often cause a comment to be removed.
Why has the second comment in this section remained? I'm aware that makes me sound like a tattletale on the playground...
I must say, I do not read or get involved with most comments posted here, but this is so entertaining, I must just do it more often!!! I love the flow and vocabulary prowess of "Sdoownek" and the role of Devil's Advocate that "Imusuallyright" plays to the "T". I must say, if I had the insight of these two, I know I would be in a much better place in life right now, and who knows, maybe I could be always right! With all of that science knowledge, maybe I could have known that when fire fell from the sky in Egypt way back when, it was from a Volcanoe!!!
Your twists on words and logic is impressive, but doesn't really tell me much about "Sonic Booms"...maybe the scientist could explain what they are and tell us how to prevent them...then maybe we could talk Russia into buying back Alaska and all will be fixed!! All of these posts ooze with intelligence and so much wisdom, that I feel that my college education actually failed me and I should have attended where all of you have!!!
I love the liberal freedom of these posts, but they are lacking any answers or problem solving value. Sure there are different views from all and we all love that about these posts...correct? I just wanted to add one more thing, well maybe two or three: I am happy to be with all of you in this big "Melting Pot", or is it the new way..."Tossed Salad"? With all of the "Smarts" on this post I am sure someone here can just "Let me know" the correct way to think. Atheists, Gnostics, and heritics are all welcome!!! It may be hard to believe that, I myself, work in the Technology, Education, and Energy fields, but I guess I still have some grip on reality and it doesn't affect anyone else, one way or another.
I do worry about the economy like some here also, regardless of what stimulates it. If that and my belief of "Leave if you don't like it" offends someone, very sorry, but so be it. I believe everyone has to have there say, but I do enjoy the silence after they leave...does this clarify my stance? Sorry not to use big words and be so myopic...Enjoy!!!
So, how is all this Science knowledge related to Sociology and Philosophy??? Oh, and I left some words mis-spelled and used sentence structure that was incorrect...so, this is also a test for the intelligent ones to correct...Thanks......
Not so shy after all...
Did somebody say Atheist?
By the way -- there's a simple answer here, shy. Fly manuevers AWAY from the civilian population. Pretty frickin' big state here. Pretty small population. Is it really, truly necessary to rattle peoples glasses off the shelves?
Shy has a college degree. That, in a nutshell, is why I gave up teaching. And which one of us is the Gnostic s/he's referring to? I swear it isn't me.
As a vet of the USMC I can say first hand that sonic booms can be highly obnoxious; we're not talking about the distant rumble of artillery practice here. Depending on how high (or low) the planes are, you can feel them all over, and they *can* indeed break things, especially glass, including windows. I wouldn't want to have to put up with them for even one week. And no, I don't believe simply because it's the military I should cut them infinite slack. And whether one pre-dates Eielson AFB or not is TOTALLY irrelevant to me. People have a right to live in peace in THIS country; no matter who is making the noise.
I also don't understand why this whole thing couldn't be held out over the pacific ocean out of Elmendorf. Is the air here different or something?
I am also troubled by what sounds like News-Miner editing or erasing of people's posts based on their opinions. That sort of behavior is more worthy of TASS or Pravda (remember them?) than a US newspaper. Combined with other occurences, I am really getting the opinion that the N-M is functioning too much like a political mouthpiece-for-rent, than a news outlet.
Oh, and finally, ever noticed how some of the most ardent 'flag-wavers' about town have seriously un-american things to say? Here's one:
"The sonic grousing needs to be muffled."
Far from patriotic, this statement is quite fascistic. This is a free country, not the soviet union, and 'muffling' ME is a lot easier said than done.
So, "sdoonwek" what would Mr. Rogers think of you jumping on here and bashing our neighbors with elitist, hateful comments. You're right, it probably wouldn't affect you. It might be a discomfort: you may have to change where you shop, or eat, assuming of course you acquire your vaccinations and climb down from your pedestal long enough to linger with us blue collar folks in the first place. You frighten me. Maybe the difficult question you should ask yourself is what is missing in you that you could be so intelligent and chose to belittle society instead of improve it. THAT'S why everybody loved Fred Rogers. I have this image of you grinning madly at your monitor while wondering if any of us can understand your post. Well, I did. "I see dumb people," too. I just prefer to associate with those with a healthy mix of intelligence and common sense.
There is this amazing ability for many of us to discuss "the military" like it is some gigantic, amorphous entity that just "is".
I'm trying very hard to not take offense at some of the comments on this page, especially since stating that the military should just go away means that somehow my contribution and presence in the community, along with that of my family is unwelcome, disregarded and minimized. And I was born and raised in Fairbanks. My children were born here. We are as much a part of the community as any scientist, social-worker or homemaker. The soldiers and airmen while stationed here are just as much a part of the community as well.
It would be refreshing if we could all remember that "the military" and military communities are comprised of people, just people. Some are good, some aren't. Some are smart. Others aren't. Some are just trying to make a buck or get to college, while others want to serve their country in the best way they know how. All of them came from somewhere, and many of them have spouses and children.
While I understand that many can't seem to get past the machine aspect that the military represents to them, it would be encouraging if once in awhile those individuals could see that a servicemember is someone working hard to fulfill their multitude of roles - as mom, dad, son, daughter, wife or husband, etc., just like everyone else.
I grew up with sonic booms. Never thought anything of them. People who complain about them probably complain about everything, and actually expect to get their way.
I'm moving on. See you all in another comment....
Happy to see you move on.
I just got back onto this comment section after asking what sdoownek did that would not be affected by the military's departure, he responded, as a lot of you already know, with science. Time, space and distance. Basically, Einsteins theory of relativity is what he described. They also call that class billiards at the University. I read what he said and it honestly sounds like a star trek episode, from the next generation of course.
Seriously though, I would be lead to believe that the military would be the most likely place for someone with that type of 'scientific' knowledge to be employeed, at least in some fashion or another. So I would also believe that because the military pays Davis Bacon wages, sdoownek is able to make a good living in the private sector (if he is there) because of the competitive market enviornment of his profession. Thus, he is living well because of the military and there removal from our area would have an affect on his industry.
Good morning all,
Since participating in these comments, I have learned a lot. The stuff that my fellow readers know (or think they know :)) is amazing.
The lesson that I continue to learn here is to pose your arguments in a way that will allow others to listen. Sdoownek probably alienated more people than he would have if would have phrased the same opinion differently--- I hope. (Like newsreader says, there is a lot of blind patriotism, and some folks will defend the military no matter what because they think that's what makes them a good American/person/patriot, whatever.) I do think sdoownek has learned or is in the process of learning to deliver his opinion less abrasively. A lot of you pointed it out to him and he seems like a person who can learn a lesson. Many of us see every opportunity as a chance to grow.
The fact remains that some of us view the military as a not altogether wonderful thing. The actions of a few DO reflect on all. I see it in my own situation: I would like the world to see women my age as smart, independent, capable, and productive. I cringe when I see a woman being anything but the above. If there’s no real reason for her to be that way, I call her on it --sometimes gently, but with no excuses--- because it reflects badly on other women and me. I hope the military does the same—makes no excuses and recognizes that there are things they do out there that make them look bad.
The best post in this thread to explain I feel about the way the military conducts business came from JoeSmoe (scroll up, please). Griff_in_Fairbanks (ex-military, I believe) did not contribute, but his posts are always candid and honest. I appreciate his point of view because he seems so open-minded and willing to recognize that there are problems and fix them. Further proof that this comment section is a darn good thing.
Umm, some rarefied air being breathed by some of the posters in these comments. As far as the USAF conducting its exercise away from "populated" areas. IT IS. Interior Alaska (for the vast majority of its real estate) is either unpopulated or the population density is minimal (Fairbanks/Nenana/Big Delta being the most notable exceptions). Why are aircraft flying in high densities south of North Pole (the Tanana Flats) and west of Big Delta (once again, the Tanana Flats)? R-2211 and R-2202 are in those places (ranges where the jet jocks practice air/ground runs). I've flown over both of them...they ARE far away from populated areas. Why there? Simulated targets are placed on the ground (both areas have simulated airfields/targets setup). So that is the why on those particular areas.
Other areas for "dog fights" over even more remote areas...you bet. Those USAF guys practice the majority over areas north of Delta Junction and south of Galena. Probably not remote enough for you...yeah, I'm "really" trying to be sympathetic. Now low flying with sonic booms...from what I read, all but one occurred over 30,000 feet? One was just shy of it. Just shy of it means NOT treetop level flying, but apparently (from the NM article) somewhere between 25k-29k. Hardly a "in your face 'civilians'" attitude...
Mine, nor the military's view is a "suck it up Community" attitude. It is a co-habitation environment between military training and interruptions to daily life. Risks and disruptions ARE ID'd and controls are put in place to minimize such "necessary" nuisances. 30K and above for flight above the sound barrier, training in Interior Alaska, etc are some of these controls. If the USAF didn't put out a press release prior to the commencement of training (about the sonic booms--they did put out PAO releases about Red Flag--bet they will include that for the ones in June and October.
As already stated, someone took poetic license in saying car and home windows were broken (by sonic booms initiated 25k and above). If you have other property complaints, contact Eielson AFB PAO so they can provide recompense to you (and the Cdrs down there can reassess and implement new controls...IF VALID).
Enjoy the rarefied (and nonfactual) air.
Please add fsjec6 to my list. "People have a right to live in peace in THIS country; no matter who is making the noise." Lovely.
" If you wish to praise the military, please do so on other grounds"
Please refrain from telling me how I may or may not comment, whether you agree with it or not. If you find a mention of an economic reality cynical, feel free to debate the topic, but your particular argument is completly lost with your self-righteous assumption that you may dictate how I am to comment.
That being said, It was not my intention to praise the military for their economic value, but only to point out specifically to someone calling for their removal what they bring economically to our community, and how it is naive to believe that our community would be unaffected by a complete military withdrawal.
I realize from his later comments that shdwnk does not really care how it affects the community, which is his right, no matter how asinine I think it is.
wintersucks said:
I grew up with sonic booms. Never thought anything of them. People who complain about them probably complain about everything, and actually expect to get their way.
theGoat says:
I grew up with winter. Never thought anything of them. People who complain about them probably complain about everything, and actually expect to get their way.
Every time I have ever heard one, it has given me goose bumps....the power...
Makes me think "go get'em boys (or girls I guess). 'tis a beautiful thing.
Not a thing to whine about. Seems to be that the military brings a lot to this community.
Hi all,
What makes a us "Good Americans"? Wondering for future reference...
Jaded
I hope that remains open to interpretation for as long as this country exists.
I know that if I was one of these pilots who have heard about all the complaints I know what I'd be tempted to do. I get as many of my pilot buddies together and fly (at full after burner) a whole flight of our planes right down main street Fairbanks, North Pole, and Delta Junction; then over Nenana and Ester just for good measure. All of that being done at about 150 feet elevation! Maybe that would let these individuals who complain know just how inconsiderate the USAF really can be!
Having said that I know that no highly eduacated, highly trained USAF pilot would actually do that; and I certainly wouldn't encourage it either. I can just imagine whats going through those pilots minds(and those of their support crews and leadership)right now. Somehow the phrase "Nothing better to do than complain about nothing" comes to mind.
I know we have the right to complain about what ever we want. These men and women are up there training to defend that very freedom; and all the other freddoms we enjoy and, at times, take advantage of. Surely we can find something else to complain about. Folks, lets leave the USAF alone and let them do their training.
I've lived in the Fairbanks/North Pole area for 10 years. I can honestly say that I don't recall having ever heard one sonic boom. Maybe I did and didn't recognize the sound for what it is. I think some folks just need to lighten up and not take life so seriously. As long the sonic booms aren't breaking windows- WHO CARES! That's my 10 cents worth.
Jaded,
Good Americans are sometimes those that listen open mindedly (and with-hold judgement) to the opinions of other citizens. Neither religion, politics, sexuality, race, or ones own insecurities, should ever cloud mutual respect toward someone who has a different viewpoint.
You have a cute name.
This little issue has grown into quite the discussion. From what I can tell, the complainers are never happy. The only thing broken seems to be their fragile little sensibilities.
The AF often has to support soldiers on the ground in an urban environment. Is it ok with you all if the AF conducts part of their training over what little urban Alaska exists? (I am sure it is, as long as it's somewhere far away from delicate feelings).
The military supports Fairbanks in many ways. It's not too much to ask the easily offended people to relax. Should the AF stop training just to save some stemware? A broken windshield can probably be claimed and paid by the AF, a minor inconvenience at best. Ask the soldiers who benefit from AF support when they come home alive and/or uninjured and most will agree that a little noise is simply minor.
If civilian lives were (are) on the line and training could help, regardless of how annoying to some, I guarentee soldiers would not only avoid complaining, but ask how they could help.
Whatever.
I've long wondered if the authorities told the military to bomb, disarm, or otherwise oppress US civilian citizens...would they?
Pretty shocking editorial.
Sonic booms are well known to have adverse health effects on humans, just take a minute to search "sonic boom+stress" and you will see a large number of studies and reports on the topic.
The Air Force Range complex here is vast, and growing. They can and should create their booms over sparsely populated areas or off shore if possible.
Get a clue News Miner; the Air Force can certainly mitigate thier noise pollution and they should be held accountable when they don't.
Post a comment
Commenting requires registration.