Death penalty surfaces in debate over Alaska sex offender bill
Published Tuesday, April 8, 2008
JUNEAU -- It's been 10 years since lawmakers debated a death penalty bill in Alaska but a Kenai Republican has put his colleagues on notice that he would like to raise the issue again.
House Finance Committee Co-Chairman Mike Chenault brought up the issue in committee Monday night during discussion of a bill to require sex offenders to register their e-mail addresses with the state.
He proposed an amendment to authorize capital punishment for certain crimes against children, then withdrew the amendment after a short debate.
Chenault said he wanted to surprise the bill sponsor, freshman Democrat Bill Wielechowski of Anchorage.
But he said he also intends to bring forward death penalty legislation next year, if he's elected to a fifth term.
"I truly believe Alaska does need a death penalty. I realize it's late and I realize members of the committee are queasy about this but it's an issue that I wanted to bring up," Chenault said.
Democrat Mary Nelson spoke against the amendment, saying innocent people have been wrongly put to death.
"I can sympathize, especially with crimes like this against young people, but the judicial system isn't perfect and it's not right all the time," she said.
The Territory of Alaska abolished capital punishment in 1957.
The last people executed in Alaska were two men who were convicted separately in the same crime. Austin Nelson and Eugene LaMoore were convicted of the December 1946 murder of Juneau shopkeeper Jim Ellen. Ellen's store was also robbed.
The two men were executed by hanging, Nelson on July 1, 1947, and LaMoore on March 1, 1948.
Attorney Avril Lerman of Anchorage researched the history of the death penalty in Alaska in a report for the Judicial Center at the University of Alaska Anchorage. Lerman said questions were later raised about LaMoore's conviction. She said the questions likely contributed to the abolition of the death penalty.
"It was an illustration of the extent to which human beings are human in too many ways to wield that sword," Lerman said.
Community Discussion
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People who rape or molest a child, which usually traumaizes them for llife and basically kills them emotionally, should be put to death. They get out and rape other kids. llok at that little boy and girl from corde lane idaho, the guy violated his reslease conditions and murdered their family and did unknown psychological damage to the surviving little girl. or that girl from florida who was snatched up raped and killed by that sex offender.
They get put in protective custody, which is like a vacation, then they are released to traumatize and psycholgically and emotionally kill children again.
My wife was raped and molested as a child at age 4. she is now 23 and cant be in rooms if the the door is closede, and wakes up screaming from nightmares and flashbacks several times a night. She is seeing a counselor once a week and a rape counselor once a week, seeing our pastor once a week and attending group therapy weekly for these issues from a child, as well as a psychiatrist every 2 months for medications for PTSD. All of which came from this one guy that raped her when she was 4.
The argument that innocent people may be put to death would be minimized if they just had a heightened standard of evidence for the death penalty. Technological progress has allowed us to be much surer of convictions than even a decade ago. It could also decrease the time between conviction and death.
I agree not enough is done for the victims of these vicious crimes and society allows murderers and rapist to walk free after being "reformed". No I have always believed in capital punishment for capital crimes and this includes rape and child molesters. I don't know how society has come to this point in history where the criminal is put higher on the social status than the victims but it has and we must reverse the trend. I am surprised and glad to see a democrat sponsor a bill like this, we need more who are not afraid to stand up for what is right.
I say bring on the death penalty! (So, am I really a DEM? *no*)
First up, I think we have some priests to hang, don't we?
I believe in the death penalty.
I think anyone who kills, rapes, molests etc. deserves to go to prison, but if we would let the ones already there kill the child molesters and rapists then we wouldn't have to pay money for more executions. I know it is horrible for me to say, but That is the way I feel.
"I don't know how society has come to this point in history where the criminal is put higher on the social status than the victims..."
pbrown, will you or somebody else please clarify just *how* criminals are put "higher on the social status" than victims? What awards do they receive? What monuments are erected to them? They are given, perhaps, more scholarships or stipends?
I am also curious to know how executing someone convicted of a capital crime does "justice" to those hurt by that crime. The raped get un-raped? The once-dead victims rise from their graves to go back to their families?
I am not suggesting that a light slap on the wrist is all we need apply. But I question whether snuffing out the life of somebody convicted of rape or murder (whether he or she actually did it or not) does any good to society that a life sentence, which is reversible in case of error, does not -- other than satisfy our blood lust.
Just curious, how many people does some one need to rape, murder, brutalize, what have you, before its ok to say, 'enough is enough' and kill them? 3? 5? How many of us have to become victims to these 'people' before its ok to put them down rather than pay for their existance and then suffer again and again at their hand when they are released?
Indeed we must keep a tight rein on the state to assure this power is not abused, but I think we the people are capable of the task.
Paul
The only way to clarify how criminals have gotten so high on the pecking order is to look back in the 60's and 70's and see how society has progressed. The bleeding heart libreals that never had or known someone killed or raped or abused in their families. They tell us to turn the other cheek and forgive. I can turn just so far and look away so long.
Look at the condition of our schools now. A child can get in trouble for drawing a picture of a gun, another gets suspended for going bang bang at another; these kids are 1st and 2nd graders. Even now we see reports of 5th and 6th graders raping and killing their own fellow students. We have turned our schools over to the libreal teachers and have them teach our children the moral standards of who; not ours? And if we do have a teacher that will stand up for morals and rights they don't last long.
Thank goodness most of this is in the lower 48 or else where in the world and not here. But that is half baked reasoning. You can have folks say it doesn't happen here but that is the ostrich approach, I ask how long till we have a drive by or something worst here in Fairbanks. It happens in Anchorage and that is too close.
The media help shape this world we live in, powering the national movement in the 70's with their left wing propoganda. We see it now in the support for our soldiers in Iraq and Afganistan.
Isn't it about time we took back our society our schools and our children; stand up to the criminals let them know the line is drawn in the sand and if you cross the consequence is death.
Sure will help out on those taxes and support for the jails and prisons systems.
I'm sorry folks. But, murder is still murder, even when it is the executioner doing it. They are commiting murder. Does the Bible not say "thou shalt not kill". And what about the inocent who are wrongfully convicted and murdered by our court system. Who pays for that killing? The Executioner or the jury? Or maybe, the judge should be executed for it? Where is the line?
Or how about if the parents start staying home and raising their own children instead of the system raising them. But, no you all have to have your big houses, your champange diets on your beer budgets. Your spoiled children really don't need all the junk you buy them. Since when does an 8 year old need a cell phone. Mom has a job, her children should be the only job she thinks about until they are school age, then go to work.
Give the children the guidence they need to live a good honest life. Look what the system has done to our children. They have raised a whole lot of perverts and they kill themselves and each other at alarming rates. The doctors feed them drugs that screw them up even worse.
But, you folks say just murder them, don't even try to fix the real problem first. Or is just easier to kill them end?
So, I guess if we all stay home and read our bibles, all murder will stop. Thanks for that incredibly intelligent analysis, there glprob!
Also, way to be blatantly sexist - "Mom has job" rah rah rah...
I was raised by a single mother, along with my 4 brothers and sisters. Sorry, mom couldn't afford to stay home and raise the kids - she was too busy trying to keep a roof over our heads and food on the table.
If I want to give my child a DS, PS2, WII, cell phone, laptop, webkinz, pokemon or any other toy under the sun (and I can afford it) then by God, I'm going to do just that.
And, guess what? My kid pulls straight A's, has already skipped a grade, and, I am consistently told, is incredibly polite and well behaved.
Know what else? She's been in the "system" since she was about 1 year old. Started in daycare, moved up to pre-school, and eventually went to those "EVIL" public schools.
So, for you and PBROWN ---
Quit trying to blame the "system" and start blaming the real problem - CRAPPY PARENTING!
AS WELL IT SHOULD! We just sentenced two people to 99 years in prison for supposedly murdering who from the sounds of it may well HAVE orchestrated the crime himself!
A WORD TO THE 78% WHO THINK 99 YEAR IS JUST PUNISHMENT
99 years of caging a human being is a heinous punishment. From my way of looking at it (and I'm NOT alone), that is beating a dead horse if it's not torture.
Apparently none of you have ever been jailed for a day, and that speaks WELL of you.
But if a person is so EVIL as to not be able to be rehabilitated inside of 20 years, (God works miracles, but miracles are going to come in 20 yrs or not at all) that individual is incredibly SICK and DERANGED and should be put down as a mercy.
ALASKA OUT OF MERCY NEEDS TO CONSIDER THE DEATH SENTENCE.
I myself considering the evidence would NOT sentence either Carlin or Linehan to death. So I stand pat on saying the 99 yr. sentence is FAR TOO LENGTHY. We're talking human beings here, not birds.
PSYCHOLOGY HAS PROVEN BEYOND A SHADOW OF DOUBT THAT PEDOPHILES AND SOME RAPISTS CANNOT BE REFORMED. THINK ABOUT IT.
OH, And I am a conservative democrat and a humanitarian.
Just a thought on “The Bible”, which one? Which translation. I have never met a person who reads Aramaic, Latin or Greek. We base a belief system around a collection of books that the catholic church put together and translated. So think a bit before you say “the Bible says” and what were the crusades all about? Am I off on a rant…sorry. The truth is it would be very difficult to implement capital punishment in Alaska. Our state constitution I believe outlines correctional facilities not prisons. Its not a PC way of saying it it’s a fundamental mentality of how they operate and the laws that bind their duties. I think it would require a constitutional convention to implement the paradigm shift to allow capital punishment. A convention is a can of worms we may not want to open. Personally Im a out behind the barn kinda guy but that because of the rate of recidivism. If we had treatment programs that worked I might feel differently but they don’t. Making life or taking it are huge responsibilities.
i totally support the death penalty for child rapists.
GLPROB, Take a look at the news. Yesterday I read a woman in Germany killed and buried 8 of her babies. She was sentenced to the 15 whole years in prison. In what sick world do you live in should someone who does that not be put to death?
Howdy Folks,
Would someone please give me the name of just one person who has been wrongly convicted and executed since the death penalty was reinstated in 1976? There have been nearly 1100 executions since 1976, and yet there hasn’t been one definitive case of an innocent person being executed.
Of course, there have been dozens, maybe hundreds of instances where people have been placed on death row and then found to be innocent. Contrary to what most death penalty opponents say, those cases are proof that the system does indeed work; because if the death penalty system didn’t work, those few dozen or hundreds of people would either be dead or still on death row.
Placing a rapist or murder in prison for 100 years sounds like a good idea, but the fact is prisons aren’t foolproof. There are countless stories of murders escaping prison only to murder again. Currently, the death penalty is the only punishment that can guarantee that a rapist or murderer will never harm another person.
When a foolproof alternative to the death penalty exist, I will stop supporting the death penalty. Until then, my concern is for the safety of my fellow law abiding citizens.
newsreader, you're wrong on this one.
How many kids do you have?
Are you a single parent?
And how old is your daughter?
Crappy parenting has become the catch-all excuse for schools, cops, legislators...the whole gamut.
I know there are a disgusting amount of crappy, druggy...parents who have lots of money but basically ignore their kids because they don't want to be bothered,(these parents do not get considered crappy by the "system" however)...
There are also parents without much money who are crappy.
All these kinds of parents deserve our condemnation.
I have heard more parents talk about the parent problem. Many, if they have more than 1 or 2 kids shut-up about it after a teenager or two or three.
I know--I used to be one of the crappy parenting blamers, as you are now.
Some of my kids have had more problems, some none, but all so far are good people. It has not been a walk-in-the-park though. I have hung in there. And I'm not "done" yet.
I was told the same things about my kids who gave me such a hard time in later years. They, too, were A students. Two were in GT classes (when they were in elementary government schools).
Never say never.
Corinne -
I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. How, specifically, am I wrong on this one?
Are you saying that in spite of good parenting, the system will ruin your children and turn them into murderers (as pbrown and glprob seem to be saying)?
Or, are you saying that it is possible that my child may grow up to get into trouble?
Because if it's the latter case, then I would have to agree with you - that is always a possibility - no one is perfect. However, I'm a firm believer that those children with good parents who take time to raise them with proper morals are FAR FAR less likely to prey upon society once they reach adulthood.
Moreover, in my opinion, in the absence of mental illness or extreme outside trauma, children go awry more often from parental neglect than from just loosing their minds and deciding they want to kill people. [Not that this doesn't happen, just that it is unlikely.]
Please, enlighten me as to where I am wrong on this.
If we used capital punishment on everybody on the Alaska state sex offender registry we would be a population of, like 5,000. Seriously, has anyone ever compared sex offender registries with those of other states? I looked at the sex offenders for 99701... over 80 (registered). Then I looked at my home county in New York (which has way more in population than entire state of Alaska). How many (registered)? 50. I feel that I want them dead also, I really do (I don't know if that's right). But there is something seriously deeper and more disturbing at hand. What the hell is wrong with Alaska?
newsreader:
Okay,okay. I guess I went off, spawned in part by lots of posts I've read over the past few days but won't comment on because I don't want to write a book or reveal my life story here.
No I do not think that the system will necessarily turn the children into murderers in spite of good parenting. The latter, yes.
I understand what those guys are saying, even if I don't agree 100%
Still, the apparent success with grades and gadgets and growing up in daycare at a young age don't determine who a child will mature to be. The effects take longer to present themselves--if at all. And even then, who will know what to attribute any "problems" to?
From what I've seen, I would wager that your child(ren) will be a fine person(s) as mine are so far.
glprob:
I think that, with research, you might discover that the commandment originally was "Thou shalt not commit murder." Not sure.
I think that killing is certainly justified in some cases.
I am a firm supporter of the death penalty. It is fiscally and morally reprehensible that the public should bear the burden of supporting these criminals while they are incarcerated. Then as they sit in prison, they often drag the legal system through appeal after appeal. The legal system is not perfect granted, but it does work to a degree. For an individual to be detained (as for questioning), the officer has to have reasonable suspicion that they did indeed commit the crime). To be arrested the officer has to have probable cause (totality of the circumstances 51% chance the person did commit the crime). Then to be convicted (and this is the really big one), they have to be proven guilty by a jury BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT! That is HUGE! What I am getting at is that it is very unlikely that a person who is not guilty will actually be convicted.
I realize that I may be cold hearted, but with the way this nation is going down hill, we as a people need to determine where we draw the line at acceptable loses. Personally if we are executing one innocent person for every thousand guilty (and I do not believe that is too far off), so be it! When a person CHOOSES to take the actions they take: murder, rape, molestation, and they violate another persons rights, I believe they no longer have rights of their own. They fall outside the protection of the law. Remove them from society, and with them their burden to society! We the people should not bear the burden of their deeds or their incarceration.
More than 120 people in 25 states have been released from Death Row due to their innocence; according to the US House Judiciary Subcommittee on Civil and Constitutional Rights, and fourteen have been set free after DNA evidence cleared them of any wrongdoing.
This is from an article I read in a newspaper called The Badger Herald. The same statistics can be found all over the internet. Is this the level of certainty you want to put people to death with? It all sounds great blaming liberals for the woes of the world, but if you want things to be better you have to start with you. Raise your children to be responsible and to respect the rights of others and do the same yourself. As to the cost of keeping someone in prison, I’ve got news for you. Because of the appeal process, among other things, it’s less expensive to keep someone in prison for life than it is to put them to death. Per capita murder is no lower in states that employ the death penalty, so it’s no deterrent to crime either. If you peel away the emotion I can’t think of an argument for the death penalty that holds water.
I don't think that the death penalty works nor does imprisoning forever. Because with the death penalty a person may kill or rape numerous people, but their one death doesn't make it better. Those people who are suffering will continue to suffer irreguardless. With lengthy prison sentences the prisons are over crowded and the taxpayers are made to pay for their needs.
My solution is to drop them from the sky onto a very isolated island with no kind of help whatsoever. Whether they live or die is up to them. They can co-exist or take each other out. They want to act like barbarians make them live like it. They can live off the land or die from its lack of modern conveniences. Make them responsible for themselves.
We do make prison life too easy. I have an Uncle that has been to prison a few times. He made the comment to me that "Prison isn't so bad. You get three square meals a day, recreation and a bed... What more could you ask for?"
As a matter of fact he said he became good friends with the warden and the warden even threw some construction work his way when he got out of jail. My Uncle's offense that landed him there for seven long years (sarcasm) was rape and attempted murder. His other stays were shorter because they were for drinking and assault and battery. (Such a flowering branch of the family tree)
My point is - really take away their rights, make them be responsible for their own actions. Never let them back in society. If they truly become reformed, good for them but that doesn't mean they should not continue to pay for the crimes they already committed.
Anyways, it's just a thought.....
countrygirl, Capital punishment is a 100% deterrent to the offender and to the victims family they know that they will never commit another crime. To me its not about money, because we will spend more putting them down its about ending a cycle. Closure and end to the fears of a weak parole board. Oh and its regardless, ”irregardless” is not a correct word. Regardless being without regard, “ir” being without, “irrregardless” would be without, without regard. Sorry pet peeve.
I would argue, what the hell is wrong with New York? One would think that a state that receives far more funding would be better equipped at catching these creeps. It would appear that someone is asleep at the switch. To "the chair" that is.
The heck with being a deterrent. Cold blooded murderers and child molesters deserve punishment. There is no stronger punishment than execution. And that individual would certainly be deterred. That's one for society.
With evolving science, i.e. DNA evidence and who knows what else in the future, we could streamline the appeals process, and make the "it costs less to incarcerate than to execute" argument irrelevant. Ten or twenty years of appeals is too much.
scrabble---the kool aid is dribbling down your chin. I'm sorry, I didn't really mean that.
newsreader---I doff my cap to you.
Mostly, I'm heartened by this reaction to the idea of reinstating the death penalty.
Reader1 - to paraphrase an old saying: Kill one and you're a murderer. Kill thousands and you're a national leader. (You might, at worst, be called a dictator.)
Paul and others: There's too many examples in popular culture to detail here. However, you can start by examining the 'gangsta' ethos. There's still way too many people who are willing to blame the victim -- "He deserved it," with the implication he should have been able to defend himself, or "She had it coming," based on some highbrow attitude regarding how she lived, the way she dressed, or where she worked. In the gang culture that is flourishing across this nation, those who take, be it money, goods, or life, are glorified. People picket the funerals of U.S. soldiers but wring their hands for weeks on end over one troubled singer.
Imagine how horrified people would be if a homecoming queen lured one of several boyfriends to an isolated location and had him murdered. Change the participants to some guy dating a stripper and people's reactions are much more subdued.
I think too many people are grasping capital punishment as the quick and easy solution to intricate problems that have complex origins.
Griff---
Were not going to hold a vote on guilt or innocence. There would still be a trial. With rules, and evidence, and all that kind of stuff. In a court of law, with a jury, and legal representation. And an appeals process (hopefully streamlined). And lots of rules to insure the accused's rights.
I dont think that it's that complex, unless you want to know why the guilty did what they did. I dont care about that.
"And Pilate gave sentence, that it should be as they (the people) required."
How many of you think an 18 year old boy should be put to death for having consentual sex with his 15 year old girlfriend? Do you not know that is a sexual offense? Don't be so quick to judge. Not all "sex offenders" are rapist that jump out of the bushes and attack strangers or are pedophiles. How many of you were having sex at 15 (or younger) with someone who was at least 3 years older than you? Do you think that partner is a sex offender? Well, by Alaska state law it makes them one.
There have been people exonerated of crimes after being proven innocent by DNA after spending decades on death row. Wouldn't it stand to reason then that there have been innocent people put to death? Look at the Innocence Project if you want proof. Read Grisham's book of a true event, The Innocent Man.
Putting someone to death is no different than someone murdering someone. Who are you to play God? What gives you the right to decide if a person is to die? A life time in prison would be a fate far worse than death.
And, the death penalty a deterrant? Ha! Why are there people on death row right now then? Do you really believe that people who commit hideous crimes give a rats butt about the justice system, and think 'gee, I might be put to death if I kill someone, maybe I shouldn't do it'? I suppose your the same people who think if guns are banned that no one will ever be a victim of gun violence. Do you think someone who will commit a crime with a gun cares if it is legal or not?
Newsreader
You know the kid that shot up Springfield Or. He came from a fine home, good parents and still was able to kill a bunch of kids.
The question was and still is how has our society lowered itself to the point that we put killers and rapiest above the victims of the crime. And the answer is by allowing the rules to change and putting them there. I also said that it hasn't gotten to Alaska yet or at least I haven't seen it here yet but I have seen the bullying that leads to it. I have also seen principals of the schools take a stand and nip it before it gets out of hand while the teacher sits by and is unwilling to get involved.
I am glad that most of the parents here are responsible parents that would stand up and don't take there children for granted. That are involved in their lives and nurture the children as they should be. I am truely glad that your daughter is one of the fortunate ones to have been excempt from the suffering of others.
But look around and see what is going on, you might be one of the lucky ones but it is the ones that fall through the cracks that you have missed.
You could be right Glacierles it may be my liberal values that have me calling for respecting others rights and being a responsible citizen. The Kool Aid is pretty good. Try some.
pbrown ---
I'm still not understanding what you mean by "we put killers and rapiest above the victims of the crime." You haven't given any explanation of what that means to you, or even any examples that would let me in on your thinking there...
I don't know about the parents of the kid you refer to. I will say that a nice home or neighborhood does not good parents make.
I will also say that I believe some (a very few) people are just plain bad. No matter what you do or how you raise them, they will turn out bad.
What I don't see is how we can blame this on the "system".
So I've got a question, I'm reading here, if you murder in cold blood you should be put to death, if you molest a child, you should be put to death. So what if the guy that murders in cold blood kills the guy that raped his 7 year old? Was it murder, or was it justified? Where's the line and who gets to decide?
"who are you to play God?" - [WE] are the state of Alaska 'justice' system. I think we all realize that the appeal process is way too drawn out and expensive. This is another part of the justice system which is in serious need of revision. I firmly believe that the 'accused' should be allowed an appeal - an = one. Perhaps there may be cause for additional appeals as the situation warrants, but certainly not for 15 years!
I do not presume that capital punishment is a deterrent to all, but it still solves two very important problems: overcrowding in jails, and the cost to the public. Any additional deterrent beyond that is just 'icing on the cake.'
newsreader - If I may presume to respond to your question to pbrown... I think this may be a slightly (and I mean slightly) emotional statement. The problem is that while the [criminals] in the care of the State, the victims are left to fend for themselves. The victims must provide their own means of funding and time for therapy, childcare (if a pregnancy is caused), funeral costs (in case of death) etc. All the while the criminal is given "three square meals a day, recreation and a bed... What more could you ask for?"
Obviously there are exceptions to every rule. Not every sex offender should be executed, just as not every killing is truly 'murder'.
Made_In_Alaska -
This would classify as a 'crime of passion' and [presently] handled differently in the courts. This is an exception to the rule as I stated earlier. We cannot have vigilantes on the loose, however justified their cause may be. This individual has murdered another individual (for just reasons as I see it), but not in a self defense or defense of another situation. If the situation warrants, (and hopefully it would not), this individual should serve their sentence as the laws of that State dictate.
AKFshrmn
I couldn't of said it any better and probably should have.
Newsreader
I should point out the emotional state of the families of the victims too. We all suffer from the atrocities and must relive them everytime the victim does too. How many lives must be ruin so we can save the one but then if you have never lived that life you probably have never felt the pain either. So it isn't fair or right for me to expect that from you.
I never blamed the "system", I allowed you to put those words in my mouth. I do put the responsibility on the people which is our society and if we want to correct it we can start there. If you want to call that the system I suppose you can do that.
Summary
Murderers, rapiest and child molesters should all die if no one wants to do the job I'll sign on and be happy to clear the books.
AK Fshrmn, the great thing about living in the US is the ability to disagree with one another and our government and not have to worry about retribution. You and I are on totally opposing sides but that's ok, I don't really think that we will see the death penalty here in AK in my lifetime so it's not worth spending a lot of time arguing about. I would like to point out to you though that a "crime of passion" is a crime committed in the heat of an emotionally charged moment, with no opportunity to reflect on what is happening. So the only way my previous scenerio would be considered (by our law) to be a crime of passion would be if dad walked in on the guy while he's raping the 7 year old and blew him away. If dad thought about it for even 10 minutes before he went and killed the SOB, it would be premeditated. So, justified or not, dad would be classified as a murderer. Justified or not, he'd be going to the chair if you had your way. And you say that it wouldn't be in self defense or defense of someone else? Statistic wise, one out of every 4 girls is molested by the time she is 18, 80% of those molesters are known to the victim (www.registeredoffenderslist.org) so even premeditated, wouldn't that dad be defending another 7 year old from the same fate? Don't get me wrong, I'm part of that above statistic and it was someone I should have been able to trust so I'm all for punishing those that mess up little girls' heads, hell I'll be the one out leading the pack but I don't think that killing them (the molester) and basing it on our "high moral standards" is quite right. But you know what - I still respect the fact that you have your opinion and that you are willing to speak up. Personally, I think if we threw out this "cruel and inhumane" thought process and made the prisons cruel and inhumane, there would be fewer people so anxious to get in. If you break the law, you should get to live the rest of your life in a little tiny itty bitty cell, with gruel for breakfast, lunch and dinner, you should have to do you business in a bucket on the floor, and the only time you should be allowed out is so that you can go to work making the stuff that the 3rd world countries are now making and selling at Wal-Mart. Kill all kinds of birds with that stone :)
glacierles --
If I understand you correctly, you're implying the death penalty won't be used that often. Personally, I don't see a lot of difference between execution and leaving them to rot in prison for the rest of their lives. (Before anyone says execution is cheaper, I want to see how much it would cost to convict, imprison pending appeals, exhaust appeals and execute versus life imprisonment -- besides, economics be damn! ... this is about doing what's right.)
Problems I see:
1. Misconduct by law enforcement authorities. How often have you heard of the cops hiding evidence that might exonerate someone? Especially if the suspect is part of the 'undercrust' of society.
2. Misconduct or malfeasance by the prosecutor. Wasn't there a recent case, out east, of a prosecutor trying to railroad a couple of college students? I seem to recall something about elite school and soccer team.
3. Incompetence or laziness on the part of defense attorneys. Too many court-appointed defense attorneys just want to collect their money and go home, without really caring about the defendent. Sure, there's some good ones ... but there's many pressed into service who feel the meager pay isn't worth any real effort.
4. Befuddled and confused juries. Sure, almost all juries try very hard to do what's right but most jurors are out of their element. Personally, if I was up on a capital charge, I think I'd prefer a trial by a judge rather than a trial of my peers.
If the cops, prosecutor, defense attorney, and judge are honest, competent, and professional, maybe. If the jury truly understands the legal nuances and is truly convinced, beyond a reasonable doubt, maybe. If all possible evidence has been gathered, presented, and given an impartial evaluation, then maybe the death penalty is a viable option.
Personally, I think it's easier to throw the bastards in prison for the rest of their lives. Basically the same difference, just takes a bit longer. Plus, if we goofed, it's far easier to unlock the cell and release them than it is to dig them out of the ground and resurrect them.
One more quick question and than I'm off to bed - would any of your opinions (and this is for anyone, no one in particular) change if the molester was your 23 year old son?
I do stand behind most if not all of what pbrown states. The individuals we are discussing made the CHOICE to take the actions they took. I find it rather ridiculous that in todays society people are no longer responsible for the actions/choices they make. Be it taking the life/innocence/possesions of another individual, or spilling hot coffee on their on lap, why is it that we as members of this society blame their situation or upbringing for their CHOICE of actions.
Maybe I am of the minority in this, it certainly feels that way at times, but I have never felt the necessity to rape another person, violate a child's innocence, or make any other CHOICE that inhibits someone right to "life, liberty, [or] the pursuit of happiness."
The bottom line is these people we are discussing actively CHOSE to take these actions, to violate the laws and standards which we as a society have laid out. They knew these standards prior to the act and CHOSE to dismiss them. These are people which have no place in our society, and for which our society should not be expected to provide refuge. Logically our options are to remove them from our society or permit these actions!
Made_in_Alaska
Your scenerio of the father saving the daughter, the verdict would be a "not guilty" really no court would convict him as he was protection of another; his daughter.
A crime of passion is a spouse killing the cheating spouse found with the suiter. Bang dead end of story. Now that is passion but if they knew that she or he was cheating before the commission of the crime then that would be premediated. Because they had time to think about it.
Made_In_Alaska
If this was my 23 year old so and he was guilty, I would like to think no! If I thought him innocent, I would fight to the death to overturn these charges. But this does not change the fact that this justice system which I propose could in some small way benefit society (as I see it).
Griff...
I agree with your points to some degree. I believe that our enforcement officers need a SERIOUS overhaul. If a law enforcement officer is willing to 'lie' and say you did something you did not, to pull you over to do a traffic stop and check for DUI (how often have we all seen that), to what lengths will they go to cover their actions in other matters? But this is for the courts to decide. I feel that we should push for greater integrity on all fronts. If an officer or attorney is caught lying in any manner they should find themselves very deeply in the penal system.
On the matter at hand, I think we need a complete revamp of the justice system, and starting at the level of actually providing justice!
AKFshrmn - no argument here. Far too many in law enforcement don't have the professionalism and integrity they should. Likewise, the laws and judicial system needs an overhaul. As thing now stand, we have a mishmash that all too often defies all logic or common sense.
If only this was a perfect world. Unfortunately, it isn't and I'd hate to find out, after we've executed someone, that the police, the lawyers, the judges, or the jury screwed up.
With or without the death penalty, jails are far too comfortable.
This might have something to do with what pbrown has been saying.
Even if the bad guy that did ya wrong gets convicted, the victim suffers and the wrong one gets cable TV.
It's pretty hard to take.
And the kids are exposed in our society to incredibly vulgar and callous stuff. We just have to keep aware and doing our best.
In theory the defense lawyer is biased toward his or her client but the prosecutor is trying to find justice. However it doesn’t play out that way. The defense and the prosecutor are in opposition and the prosecutor wants the defendant to be found guilty. I watched a program a while back that was about DNA testing and in cases where the evidence seemed to exonerate the prisoner who had already been sentenced the D.A. fought to keep the prisoner form having another trial. It changes the conviction rate for the prosecutor and that is a measure of how well the prosecutor is doing their job. That seems at least to me to be a problem.
Wow Made_In_Alaska I was really kinda on board with you back there until you got to the part where you locked people up in tiny cells and had them making Wal-Mart products. We tried the cloistering away method with our first prisons and we found out it drove people insane. If there is a chance they will return to society that’s sort of a bad idea. If we plan to keep them in prison for their entire lives then we only have to consider that they will be a problem for corrections, oh and we need a whole lot of prisons. As far as making Wal-Mart products we really can’t have government institutions competing with private industry.
AkFisherman in reality there are funds available for victims of violent crimes to pay for counseling. Also they have the right to sue the perpetrator.
Griff, what do you propose?
If you have ever read anything I post on here you would know how much I want a less powerful government, and I also said that a state that is allowed by us to execute must be closely watched.
I have a feeling that some one here are of the type that believes that killing is wrong, always. In war, they would rather see 10,000 american soldiers die, than one civilian. Would rather a man be free to victimize people over and over, than allow the state to kill him.
Scrabble
There you proved my point, lets just throw money after the problem and hope it fixes the victims, more shrinks, and let them sue. Most of the time they don't know who it was and they never get caught, the other half the victim is dead.
What about the hiker in Georgia who or how will she sue. She is dead and the guy has nothing to sue for. We are luck to get the police away from the donuts to solve a crime. Sue hell, catch the criminal and let justice be done.
If those who rape and molest face the same fate as murderers, what then is the incentive for these idiots to NOT kill the victim? You can get all "yee-haw" and rowdy over wanting to kill everyone who commits these offenses, but then there would be more dead victims. Sentencing offenders to death is a very costly process- appeals are not cheap. I'm not saying there shouldn't be a death penalty, just make sure you're damn sure the person is guilty before we waste tax money on appeals for these offenders.
pbrown & AKFshrmn ---
Ok, I get it now. And, I pretty much agree with you - prison is probably too lax for child molesters and murderers. [Of course, having never been there, mine is not a very informed opinion - it sure doesn't look easy if you watch Oz...]
What ever happened to chain gangs? Maybe we'd all feel a bit better if we knew that these barbaric throwbacks were at least doing hard labor that would benefit our state. I know that I would.
Anyhow, thanks for the clarifications.
Sundevil05
Now we have to give them an incentive not to rape and molest yes that is a smart way of doing it. You must be one of those folks that we pat them on the head and send the back among the sheep. There must be changes to the laws and none of these three strike rules, you kill, rape or molest you die. Easy no frills. No let's get another opinion.
We have improved on the science of forenseic and DNA that when done right it proves it. For those convicted, the law should read BYE BYE. If you aren't proven guilt then you are released. Normal law. What is the problem?
I'm the last person to pat an offender like that on the head and send them among the sheep. I wouldn't assume or tell you what you would do. Molesters and rapists get theirs in prison from other inmates, and a lifetime of that kind of treatment suits them just fine. Let the other felons take care of them instead of you supposed "civilized" law-abiding folks.
Seems to me, that society is trying to close the barn door after the horse is loose.
It all started with Dr.Spock, the "feel good" enthusiast. He said if the child wants ice cream for breakfast, give them ice cream. Don't argue with the child. Give them whatever they want. Build up thier ego, and self-esteem at all costs.
You can see the results of his thinking today in almost all advertising. You buy a car because it makes you sexy, you own the road, etc. If you can't actually kill and brutalize, do it vicariously with video games, and watch people beat each other bloody inside a cage, including children, now, as young as six.
Never wait for anything. If you want it, get it. What are credit cards for???? If all else fails, ask Mom and Dad to get a "reverse mortgage", and pay off your problems. After all, what else are they good for?
If you can get a fight on video, or if you commit arson, and had the presence of mind to tape it, put it on "my space". You'll be famous.
And, after all, that's all that counts, anymore
I am not going paying for jailkeeper and housing and food for each person in prison. Who stay in prison for life... It is silly to waste money that ones ....... IF THEY PUT THEM TO DEATH THEN SAVE LOT MONEY FROM FEED AND HOUSING COSTLY ON PRISON
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