Letter to the Editor
The other side
Published Wednesday, March 19, 2008
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Stumble It!March 11, 2008
To the editor:
On June 12, you published a one-sided letter titled “Bad Experience” from Mr. Eric Cray. I hope you will allow your readers to hear the other side of the story.
I have worked nearly 18 years for the Department of Natural Resources Parks Department. This campground has been managed under a private contractor for the last eight years.
Mr. Cray stated that on the night of June 9 he and his family thought the campground looked abandoned; they thought they would take their chances and not pay the fees or late fees. Well, they did get caught and were mad that they had to pay. The rules were clearly posted throughout the campground.
I had just cleaned the campground and disinfected the bathrooms that morning. My records show 18 out of 24 campsites were full of families that night, not abandoned, like Eric Cray said. He knew the campground was fully operational.
It is not worth my time, effort or loss of revenue to have to deal with whiners who don’t wish to pay.
I would like your readers to know that the campground on the lower Chatanika, near Olnes Pond, has been closed down for a long time.
So, thanks to Mr. Cray and his family, and other people like him who don’t want to, or think they shouldn’t, pay: I quit! I have taken an early retirement.
So, I pass the torch to him and his family. I challenge him. If he can do a better job, go for it! Now he can find out what the fees are for, and where his “beer money” goes. He has until 4:30 p.m. on March 21 to submit his bid to DNR.
In conclusion: The Cray’s didn’t pay the fees that night. They chose not to. They could have left, but chose, instead, to stay.
Good luck to the new contractor. “Hooray for Ozzy!”
Community Discussion
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Why did I have to clean the garbage from my own campsite? Why were all of the signs full of bullet holes? Where were you when all of the idiots around me were driving their 4-wheelers through the park? Where were you when it was 3 a.m. and the people by the river site were blasting their music so loud that you couldn't sleep? Why didn't you stop by during the evening and try to be helpful? Maybe see if someone didn't pay simply because they didn't have small enough bills?
I happily pay my fees when I go to respectable sites, like Harding Lake. The caretakers there actually go around the site and you can talk to them if you have any problems. They make sure that the place is well taken care of and that some moron with his loud stereo isn't keeping everyone up. They actually go around in the evening and make sure people have paid, and make change for people who stopped at the ATM and only have $20s on them.
Maybe if you had done your job during the night instead of just showing up in the morning to collect money there wouldn't be poor feelings. Really, it is your fault. You may be proud of how the site was kept, but take advice from an outsider: it was a terrible campsite that was ill kept with a bunch of idiots whooping all night with no one around to curb the behavior.
Don't blame your failure on others.
I can definitely see both sides here, but I'm struggling with one little detail: you (Mr. Cray) knew there was a use fee and frankly you should have paid it for using the site! Not having the correct change for the fee is a lame excuse, because you knew there would be a fee and should have known about how much it would cost. If you're not going to pay like everyone else for using the site, then go park somewhere and camp that is free! Regardless of how the campsite was kept, you have a responsibility like everyone else to pay. You made the choice to stay there. You didn't have to. I wouldn't have, if it was half as bad as you say it was! It sounds like a lot of excuses after the fact to me...
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Cheap? I'm sorry, but a ten dollar fee is a drop in the bucket. And we figured there would be a fee, hence the reason for stopping at an ATM on the way out. Silly me, I thought that there would be an actual caretaker there like I've experienced at other sites. It cost far more than $10 to go out there with my truck and the 5th wheel trailer and I would've happily paid for the services had they been provided adequately.
I think you are all missing the point. But who am I to argue on some message board? Unless you were out there and saw the beer bottles and trash that needed cleaned up from our site, and had to experience the hell that was camping on all sides of us, then you wouldn't know. I simply won't pay for a service when it isn't provided.
Again I ask, why did you stay there, if it was so horrible? What makes you entitled to not pay when others at the site likely did pay the fee?
ahhhh i see the news-minus is censoring free speech...god forbid someone is offennnnnded...time to quit...time to unsubscribe from this pc rag...Im calling now...
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We stayed because it was quite a drive out there and was late in the day. We stayed because it would have been difficult to tell my small children we aren't camping here because it is dirty and it seems like no one was around to clean up. Also, the problems with other campers didn't occur until late in the evening. We only stayed one night and got out of there in the morning.
I am "entitled to not pay" because I did the caretakers duty. I am the one who got out and cleaned up the site, not him. I am the one who had to deal with the idiots running their 4-wheelers (not allowed) and blasting music (again, not allowed) and not him.
HE DID NOT DO HIS JOB. Why would you pay anyone for not doing their job?
Mr. Cray I cant believe how inmature you are. Your a grown man stop acting like a kid.
If you think there is to much trash at a particular camp site then find another. I you like the spot then help us all out and clean it up. Who do you think you are...Hillary Clinton or something
Also if all you had was a twenty you put that into the envelope and work out the difference with the park ranger later, thats the responsible thing to do, cant believe I have to teach a grown man this behavior.
And lastly I love this state and hope in the future you will also enjoy it too... Dont think you are to good to lend a hand and make things better for us all.
"On June 12th you published a one-sided letter...", by my count that was nine months ago. Where the hell did this come from?!?! How could you possibly have a nine month old newspaper lying around, pick it up, and think "Oh ya, I better write a letter to the editor giving some sob story about early retirement cause that Eric Cray guy hurt my feelings." I'm sorry but I just hadn't realized these forums were full of six year old kids whining about such pitiful circumstances.
"I have worked nearly 18 years for the Department of Natural Resources..." so in 18 years you never had someone complain about the campsite? In 18 years you never had a camper not want to pay because of the campsite conditions? In 18 years you never once had a problem at the campsite? LIAR!!
If the campsite really wasn't such a dump, maybe the readers who do frequent this campsite would continue to stay there. They would of read Eric's letter and thought, "That guy's wrong, I love that campsite. I think I will continue to camp there because it is so nice." But instead ONE GUY complains about your campsite NINE MONTHS AGO and you're "forced" early retirement? Sounds to me like no one forced you except yourself.
I guess it was from all that revenue you lost during winter camping season (it's extremely cold here in the winter by the way and few people go camping at -20). Mr. Hutton's letter is proof that the readers who have camped out there agree with Eric and decided not to camp there anymore.
I think I'll save today's paper and in nine months submit a letter talking about how much I hate it when a letter is published with the intention of publicly bashing someone for a legitimate complaint. I'll site this one as an example for anyone who might forget.
i COMPLETELY agree with boombam1215! well put!
Whining about not paying is not a legitimate complaint! Mr. Hutton's letter is blown out of proportion for sure, but come on folks, grow up and pay the dang fee to support the sites! We're not paying the caretaker's salary here, nor withholding their salary by not paying. Grow up and take responsibility for the things you can instead of trying to deflect EVERYTHING toward others! These arguments are absolutely ridiculous...
Again, I simply refused to pay the fee because I did get out and clean it up. It wasn't that there was too much trash. It was the fact that there were beer cases, bottles, and all sorts of other stuff scattered throughout the entire site. We spent a good half hour just cleaning the junk up. Let me tell you that my time is worth much more than $10/half hour. I think the campsite should feel lucky that I was there to clean up after others and that I didn't bill them for my time.
Bikebuilder, you obviously fail at reading comprehension. Immature or not, I simply refuse to pay for a service when it is not rendered. End of story. I did my part by cleaning up the campsite and my guess is you didn't read the original letter. The original letter was about how I went there for a few nights of camping and it was a horrible experience; no one should camp there and the state should be ashamed of the caretaker because he obviously was not doing a good job. Again, my perception and my opinion. It is quite possible that my standards are a bit higher than yours.
Mr. Cray, Bikebuilder was right. He did comprehend your defense & your attitude. There are rules to society Mr Cray, like them or not, they exist. You stay, you pay. If it is not satisfactory & you feel there is a problem, you then go through the proper channels. You could've taken pictures, contacted the DNR & demanded a refund or even insisted upon a property inspection. That would have been responsible. If you weren't willing to follow the rules, you should have left. You are very lucky that the troopers weren't called on you for stealing/breaking the implied contract. The campground may have been just as you described, however there are no two ways about it, you handled the situation incorrectly. You could get over your pride & accept your responsibility in the matter, or you can continue to be childish, your choice. Hopefully your children are better behaved than you.
sometimes i want to camp in the "off-season", but the campsites are closed and sometimes blocked or locked. We went last year in May, and the place was closed for winter. So we had to wait and camp with the tourists and the crowds.
Ah, the voice of reason. Thank you, akprincess72, for your insight.
It was clearly posted that if I didn't pay there would be a late fee, totalling $15. That is still less than the $20 I would have put in there, and as I said, I had my doubts already about whether or not someone actually cared for the place. Call the troopers for theft of service at a campground? I don't think so. Maybe I should have called the troopers because I paid for a service that I didn't receive.
You are correct that I could've handled the situation differently. However, I am happy with the choice I made nine months ago and do not wish to revert it. I did complain by publicly speaking out about the campsite. I did pay the contractor his fees without any arguing or bickering. I accepted responsibility, but it does not detract from the fact that he should be ashamed for accepting money for services he did not provide.
He is no better than the mechanic that charges you for changing your oil when in fact he didn't even touch your car.
i have seen that camping area many years ago, and i have seen it the last few years. it used to be a great place. now it looks like it's been totally neglected for years. i wouldn't camp there either. i'd drive another mile or two up the road and just camp in the undeveloped woods first.
i'd say you should have payed the ten dollar fee mr. cray. but then i would have submitted an invoice for labor services provided for your clean up work.
to that caretaker that retired. i can understand your position. you can only work with the resources that you were provided. there were obviously no provisions for having 24 hour supervision of the camp ground. and face it, we here don't want to pay for the costs that that would entail. from this news story i'm assuming that that camp ground has become a place for beer bashes (probably with a lot of underaged drinkers) because of a lack of late night supervision. i ain't gonna camp there.... no way.
This camp ground used to be STATE run. But everyone clamored for cutting silly government services so it was contracted out...so this is what happened. It went to pot. It is just one example of privitization and the capitalistic approach to services to the public but I think it has hit home to what can happen.
no, i can live without the government run camp grounds. i'm glad that funding was cut. like i said above... just go another mile up the road and camp in the undeveloped woods. but clean up your mess.
For those of you who aren't reading the whole comment or didn't read Eric's original letter: "I did pay the contractor his fees without any arguing or bickering. I accepted responsibility...," ecray 3/19/2008 11:44 a.m.
So now that we know Eric did pay the man, what else was the problem with Eric's complaint? Oh ya, Mr. Hutton you forgot to add that little tidbit into your letter didn't you? Maybe because you didn't want anyone knowing that despite the crappy state of your campground that Eric still paid you! Even when he did your job for you!
I don't know why you would want to retire. People show up, clean the camp site for you, then pay you just so they can set up a tent. Sounds like a sweet job to me, why were you retiring again?
No one likes paying for bad service, but they do anyway because it's illegal not to. Why is Eric being singled for thinking so? For anyone who has told a friend not to go to a restaraunt because of bad service (closes that business down) or a mechanic who does poor maintenance to a car (closes that business down), Eric is simply doing that very same thing. Just for a campground, not an autoshop or restaraunt.
Yes, go up the road and trespass on someone’s land and camp. Sounds great, just so you know, that is illegal. Oh, let me beat you to the punch, "if it aint posted" ya it still is illegal. Just think if everyone did what you are suggesting. Hey, why don’t you just start squatting on some land up there and see how that goes? YouMustBConfused
In response to youmustbconfused:
You really have no idea what capitalism & privatization could do for this campground. The problem with it is, that it's a remote site, and it's state owned. The ne'er do wells know this. And the surrounding community can't (or has decided against) purchasing this site and paying a private contractor for security and maintenance because that would mean that they have to be invested in the problem and getting it "fixed". They would have to spend their time and energy keeping an eye on it. They don't want to spend their time this way; or perhaps they are prevented from spending their time this way because it doesn't technically and legally belong to any of them.
Because it belongs to the State of AK., it becomes the obligation of the State to provide what they can, given their resources. While it may become (one day) a beautifully maintained and well-used site, there is always the possibility that the deadbeats of society will discover how to take advantage, as they so often do, and as obviously happened the night Mr. Cray and his family chose to stay there.
The state has other well-maintained sites that are privately contracted, without the same problem, because those contractors have a great infrastructure. They employ helpers (and volunteers) to clean, maintain, and just be physically present in the parks in order to not only be visible to the general public, but also to encourage responsible behavior. In addition, some of these private contractors are capable (or employ capable people) to enforce laws against bad behavior.
When a campground gets a reputation it's not hard to maintain; it's not difficult to turn it around either. But, it does take a willing committment of time, energy, and resources. And privatization and/or capitalism can help facilitate this.
So. I go to a restaurant. The food is lousy. The service is horrible. I hate the music that is playing overhead. Someone is smoking. And wow, did I drive a long way to get to the restaurant. And to top it all off, I am STARVING and so is my family...so I eat the food at that moment in time - despite having other options available to me, no matter how uncomfortable, for my stomach. Do I have to pay now that I've eaten the food? Hmmmm. Seems pretty straight forward to me.
Now, do I later take it up with a manager, supervisor or owner? You betcha - and I get my $10 back, plus some great satisfaction in having my complaint registered and addressed. But first, I have to be in the right. If I refused to pay, then I'm not in the right, am I?
Parker I think you summed it up perfectly...you said "They employ helpers (and volunteers) to clean, maintain, and just be physically present in the parks in order to not only be visible to the general public, but also to encourage responsible behavior." That is often true. But you said in this area the people in the immediate area..."the surrounding community can't (or has decided against) purchasing this site and paying a private contractor for security and maintenance because that would mean that they have to be invested in the problem and getting it "fixed". They would have to spend their time and energy keeping an eye on it. They don't want to spend their time this way; or perhaps they are prevented from spending their time this way because it doesn't technically and legally belong to any of them."
I think you hit it right on the head, ownership is always local. You make it look like this area has a NIMBY problem. Or its not my problem. Is that what you are saying?
Wow, Inspiron. You figured it all out. You should probably get your own TV series now. You should really give me credit than that. Go back and look at other posts I have made and he has made and you will clearly see we are not one in the same, although we are somewhat like minded.
We do not write "almost identical." Although, I do believe that both of us would agree that 'identically' would be the correct usage of the word in that sentence.