Money sought for railroad bridge, extension
Published Sunday, January 4, 2009
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Stumble It!FAIRBANKS — Local governments and the state railroad corporation are teaming up to find money for a bridge across the Tanana River, the first leg of what could become a long-discussed extension of railroad track to the southeast.
Congress has used the past two years’ Department of Defense budgets to set aside two-thirds of the money needed for the proposed half-mile-long bridge, according to the Alaska Railroad Corp.
The bridge likely would span the river at the community of Salcha. It would accomplish a few things, according to railroad officials, including giving the military access, by truck and possibly later by rail, to millions of acres of training ground south of the river.
The training areas are only accessible now by ice bridge or aircraft.
Railroad officials say construction of the proposed $150 million bridge could begin as early as 2010. It also would lay the keystone for a proposed extension of the railroad’s track from North Pole, home of two oil refineries, 80 miles southeast to agricultural community of Delta Junction. Delta hosts the Army’s Fort Greely, a post that constitutes one leg of the military’s ground-based missile defense system.
“The big (benefit) is going to be being able to access the training grounds and also Fort Greely” by vehicle and, with the later track extension, by train, railroad spokesman Tim Thompson said by phone Tuesday.
The assembly and administration of the Fairbanks North Star Borough earlier this month asked the Alaska Legislature to give the railroad another $40 million for the project. Local officials noted the proposed bridge could carry with it millions of dollars of work to stabilize the banks of the Tanana River, which last summer again flooded much of the 1,000-person town of Salcha.
“This not only solves access to training areas, it would solve all of the flood issues in Salcha except groundwater flooding,” Whitaker said of the bridge proposal, which would come with a levee on the eastern bank.
The Legislature likely will find itself wrestling with financial forecasts, when setting the coming year’s budget, that rely on far less revenue that last year, as oil prices have dropped to a fraction of their price through 2007. Sen. Joe Thomas, D-Fairbanks, said he plans to scour the extension plan to look at the potential costs and benefits. He understands some upsides — including the prospect of eventually extending the track into Canada — but said this year could be a tough time in which to weigh expensive construction projects with state money.
“That is a fairly large chunk of money just to get to Delta,” Thomas said.
The railroad touts the proposed bridge as a direct, year-round route between the north side of the river — and, within miles, the Fort Wainwright Army post in Fairbanks — and the military’s Tanana Flats Training Area.
A federal transportation board recently issued a draft of environmental paperwork the railroad needs for the proposed bridge and the larger extension project. The board will visit Interior Alaska in January to take comments on the document, and the railroad would then need to secure permits from a number of other agencies before moving ahead with the bridge, Thompson said.
The railroad’s plan is to embed railroad track in the bridge, which could then later be connected, with new rail, to North Pole to the northwest and Delta to the southeast. The proposed project — an idea discussed periodically at state or national level for a century, according to railroad officials — has been a hot topic in Delta Junction over the past few years, according to Pablo Martinez, a City Council member and past president of the Delta Junction Chamber of Commerce.
“Everyone keeps coming back to the economy here in Delta, that it will grow and develop” with the transportation benefits of a railroad link, Martinez said.
Community Discussion
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is this a bridge to nowhere?
its a bridge to somewhere called nowhere polarmark
Fairbanks North Star Borough needs that $40 million plus to build several bridges across the Chena River & the lil Chena river to make it more accessible for residents of the Borough.
Whitaker needs that $40 million plus to build several bridges across the Chena River & the lil Chena river to make it more accessible for residents of the Borough.
Local governments needs that $40 million plus to build several bridges across the Chena River & the lil Chena river to make it more accessible for residents of the Borough.
Department of Defense budgets two-thirds of the money, where is the 1/3 from the Alaska Railroad Corp?
Fairbankans & North Polans vs the 1,000-person town of Salcha
Not being mean to the 1,000-person town of Salcha. A wider population and commerce would benefit along both sides of the Chena River & the lil Chena rivers.
The questions are:
Are we building infrastructure to facilitate natural resources reaching the Borough & us?
or
Are we building infrastructure to facilitate access to more residents reaching the Borough & us?
or
Are we building infrastructure to facilitate access to the military’s Tanana Flats Training Area & not reaching the Borough & us?
I noticed the above article did not mention the people who would be losing their homes or property for this to happen. It made it sound like it was the answer to everyones prayers in Salcha. I am involved in it and it is a far cry from answering our prayers. Maybe the newspaper should contact people in Salcha for their opinions on it.
Whitaker says: "This not only solves access to training areas, it would solve all of the flood issues in Salcha except groundwater flooding."
Please, NM, flesh this out a little more; it's not really clear why/how flood issues would be solved...
Why not spend $150 million federal dollar bridge across the yukon river for your federally recognized Native American tribes who are off the state road maintenance clauses? After all the oil invasions are still active here in Alaska. The local native people are the ones who are suffering because greed are practiced among brotherhood of man.
Again Wisechief ??? The last time i looked there was a bridge across the Yukon.
The local native people are the ones who are suffering because greed are practiced among brotherhood of man.
"local native" ? "suffering" ? "greed are praacticed"
What are you smoking???
So, what happens to the people who live between Salcha and the Moose Creek Dam? We live next to the 36 Mile Slough, approximately 1 mile east of the Tanana River. Last summer, when Salcha was flooding, the water was approximately 2 feet from the top of the bank in front of our house on the 36 Mile Slough. Have there been any studies on what will happen to us and our neighbors? Also, I have a friend who lives on the Tanana River off Rosie Creek Road. Her house did flood last year - what happens to her and her neighbors? If the banks of the Tanana are going to be "stabilized" and Salcha will no longer flood, all the water has to go somewhere, and I'm worried that it will be in my house and all the houses of the Borough residents who do not have "stabilized" river banks.
Come on Vegas wants a few Fed billion to build a museum dedicated to the mob to increase their economy by bringing in more tourist. Alaska will be more likely to get a few billion from this administration if we said we need to build a museum dedicated to corrupt Republicans to attract tourist and increase our economy. Seems like we are tring the railroad into the gasline, forty years from now you'll still be talking about it.
Wisechief - I wonder if you are actually that slow, or someone pretending to be a dumb native. Either way, think about what you say before you post it. Demanding things and claiming victim is not going to get us anywhere. Going to and finishing school, starting small businesses, community based economic development, and resource development are the key to rural village independence.
Forty million? That's a lot of money...
Wisechief, what are you chiefing on? lay of the piece pipe.
So they want to spend $150M on a bridge to make it easier for the military to haul their crap into the bombing range? And then blow it up? What a colossal waste of money. No wonder this country is going down the tubes.
The good people of Salcha and Eielson Farm Road do not want this rail line running through their neighborhood. The military wants this railroad but they are not willing to give any ground for it to be built on. They want to take the small amount of private property in Alaska and use it. The rail line could stay on military land and not impact a single family or farm. As for the bridge, what a waste of tax payers money. The rail line that dead ends in Delta and can only be reached by plane or ice bridge and is only used by the military can not be that great for any economy. Please call your state reps and voice your opinion.
Are you saying that there have been no "town hall" type meetings in Salcha regarding something that would effect the residents lives? I find it hard to believe that something like a new bridge with a cost of approx $150 million dollar (and will more than likely cost much more) was not discussed with the community. Usually by the time this information hits the paper or the news there has been many surveys, meetings etc.
I agree with FarmGuy
I'm with those that believe its a bridge to nowhere. The military has all the training area it needs located behind eielson AFB, and has access across the Tanana river during the winter training cycle with a ice bridge.
The energy companies have developed the technology to access our land during the winter months, why should we allow the military summer access to destroy the flats when they already have the Yukon Training Area, and the flats in the winter.
The idea of a bridge across the tanana to help develop the Delta Junction area is a waste of money. The railroad can be routed to Delta without crossing the Tanana, plus I havent heard anything about doubling the current costs because we forgot that we are going to need another bridge to get the train back across the river to Delta.
If we can justify a train route thru canada to the U.S.A. to develop our resources then you got my vote.
But to spend that much money for a bridge across the tanana to nowhere is plan dumb! and on the same track our representitives have been on for years, the track to a depression.
I'm not neccesarily against extendeding the railroad, but here is my question: If they are going to cross the Tanana by Salcha, aren't they going to have to build another latge bridge to get to Delta??? If they are going to use this extension as a boon for Delta's agriculture or to use as a direct link to Ft. Greely, they would have to bridge the Delta River south of its confluence with the Tanana in order to reach the city of Delta Junction or Ft. Greely. Otherwise, all this does is extend the railroad onto the Tanana Flats. Anyone who has seen the Delta River knows that it is a very wide and braided river that would require a large dike to elevate the rail bed and also a large bridge to cross the river itself. It doesn't makes sense to cross both rivers to gain access to Delta/Ft. Greely. Why not keep the rail extension to the east of the Tanana and than cross the Tanana near the Richardson Hwy/pipeline crossings? Maybe I am missing something here.
bikebuilder....looks like we were typing at the same time!!
this latest plan of whitikers is just another rip off. given the state of our elected officials to washigton this year and the problems of last year are we sure the money will be there? next if the rail road wants it let them pay for it, they are a stand alone buisness now, or let the military pay for it. sounds to me another political boondoggle that we do not need or want.
like minds
Bike and Fish are correct: if the railroad crosses the Tanana somewhere downstream around Salcha, then the tracks either end in the military land west of Delta Jct., OR the tracks then have to re-cross the Tanana downstream of the disembogue of the Delta R into the Tanana, and then a third bridge effectively adjacent to the Rich Hwy and the TAAPS crossing of the Tanana just to the north of Big Delta, OR the tracks have to continue somewhat farther south and then cross the broad braided gravel bed of the Delta River. That latter is not, in fact, the enormous challenge posed by Fish, but IF the goal of the railroad is to reach Delta Jct (and, potentially, continue toward Canada at some future date) then many tens of millions would be saved by routing the rail line along the obvious path, which is the one taken by both TAAPS and the Rich Hwy: along the east bank of the Tanana all the way to Delta.
My significant reservation I have posted before remains: Both Greely and Eielson have been marked - twice, I believe - for closure. The incoming administration has shown itself not only to be interested in military reductions but more critically, to be especially leery of the missile defense program that is the only significant activity presently occurring at Greely. All of that adds up to a truly tenuous military backing for the rail extension - and therefore the state, the Borough and the affected communities MUST be triply careful in bringing their scarce dollars to a project that the military might abandon.
Just bombard your representatives with a big NO. This is too ridiculous to even discuss.
Remind them the military can pay for their own railroad and building one can't somehow miraculously make the Delta Barley project anything but what it was: one of the biggest bureaucratic fiascoes in history.
dog
The topography between Eielson and the Salcha river would make it a lot more expensive to run the railroad next to the pipeline then to cross the river twice. That would even be the fact if they ran it along the Rich. I say they build it. It puts the railhead even closer to a link with the lower 48.
The railroad has had meetings in Salcha. During the meetings they handed out a bunch of literaure and let everyone know what they wanted to do. The railroad stressed they didn't want to take land and wanted to be fair with any and all homeowners affected, but also let it be known you didn't have much of a choice in the matter. I have never seen the Mayor at the meetings though.
If these wiseguys have $100million burning a hole in their pocket..
here's a much better biz-plan to invest in---
http://s281.photobucket.com/albums/kk209...
If the State wants to avoid legislating an income tax...
...here's an alternative revenue source, $250k/day
[ Data from PolyPipe Design & Engineering Manual ]
6" type-3408 SDR-7 poly-gasline weighs 7.336 lbs. per foot.
6" nominal [ 6.625" OD actual size ]
SDR-7 [ 4.66" ID actual size ]
Wall Thickness 0.946"
Operating Pressure gas/fluid-rating @ 50F 368psi new -- 317psi after 50 years
[ psi capacity is much higher in colder temps ]
Burst Pressure 1600psi
Propane vapor pressure is 30psi at zero-degrees F -- 20psi at -25F
Ethane vapor pressure is 220psi at zero-degrees F -- 100psi at -25F
[ ethane can be shipped in this gasline when there's snow on the pipe ( below 32F ) -- propane can be shipped anytime summer/winter ]
NatGas condensates physical properties are well within the rated-capacity of SDR-7 type-3408 HDPE-pipe
it's 2,200,000 feet from Prudhoe to the rail siding in Goldstream/Fairbanks
16,139,200 pounds of polypipe
type 3408 poly pellet is currently $2/lb
$32,278,400 polypellet cost
I can get you the extrusion machines airfreighted to FBX for $5mil
I can get a shipload of polypellet shipped to Seward.
..add $5mil for the condensate pumpstations [modularized in TEU's]
Now we're looking at roughly $45million for a basic gasline-kit to FBX..
A few small teams of workers can deploy this gasline during winter at a rate of 100,000feet per day..
it's as simple as dropping a gardenhose onto your lawn [almost]
An NFPA-58 fire-insurance waiver can be managed to allow the first test shipments of condensate to occur in winter until the gasline can be buried next summer.
Total installed cost can be slightly less than $100million.
This gasline is easily capable of delivering 200gallons per minute of LPG or ethane-condensate to Fairbanks.
200gpm = 288,000 gallons of condensate or propane per day
NetBack wholesale rate roughly $1/gallon
$100million at amortization rate of $288k/day = full amort in 348days
http://s281.photobucket.com/albums/kk209...
..I can pack all of this in one shipment of 10,000dwt
Propane - 91,600 BTU's/gallon
Hardwood (20% moisture ) 24,000,000 BTU's/cord
91,600 x 288,000 / 24,000,000 = 1,099.2 cords of birch x $200/cord = $219,840 firewood/day
woodstoves have 40-60% heatloss thru the chimney
propane out-vented heaters have 10% heatloss outdoors
this means 23,742,720,000BTU's of heat from propane
can be delivered to indoor heating using the 6" polypipe gasline
this will give 23,742 houses a million BTU's per day.
Everybody should rush to stake mining claims in the Tanana River.. $250 for 5acres.
The Tanana should be dredged for flood-control, barge channel, gold-mined and the spoils used to build a levee on the north side of the river..
then put the silly railroad on top of the levee.
A cluster of 12 48" polypipe CNG-gaslines can be easily placed on the north side of the new levee.
The gold/minerals will pay for the project..
several birds will be clobbered with one stone..
and several porkbarrel fifedoms will be properly put on a healthy weightloss diet.
Hey DT:
Has ANYONE - Russians, Koreans, Rwandans, Martians - implemented a plan such as yours? Are there ANY real-life examples of the project that you love and present so compellingly?
just think if eielson or greeley gets closed on the next base closing we would have a extra bridge to no where. if that happens the crime rate would also decline because of less population in the area which means also we can lay off some of the policeman in fairbanks and north pole which means less taxes. things are looking better and better because i bet the third time on the base closings are not the charm.
Do you know what this bridge will do? it will destroy the moose population on the whole tanana flats! A bridge to nowhere again.
The bridge is the ARMY's bridge, earmarked with DOD moola. Only the military will be able to use the bridge, so it'll probably be locked up on the north bank. Tentatively yes, the Army's bridge to nowhere.
Currently, it appears there is only one property that'll be affected by the bridge construction. There would be road access off the Rich at Tom Bear Rd. near the Salcha Fairgrounds.
Other properties would be affected later on if the AKRR finds the funds to run the rail from the Chena Flood Area out to Salcha, and subsequently to the bridge.
I think those of us who live upriver from the proposed Tanana crossing are going to be flooded out, as
#1) This is a narrow part of the Tanana
#2) The finger dikes the Army COE proposes to put in upriver from the bridge will like exaserbate the flood issue. Yes, it's got a few of us concerned.
The Surface Transportation Board will be holding meetings over the next few weeks; places/times are posted on www.salcha.org for your perusal.
My strong initial feeling is that while there may be reasons to build the bridge, they are not compelling. The economy of both Alaska and the US are not all that great right now. We have huge immediate needs, like repairing crumbling infrastructure, providing health care to an aging population and huge military debts from ongoing wars. I don't care whether it's federal or state dollars, let's not spend money on things that are not critical. And--once it's built, someone is going to have to patrol and maintain it. Whether that is federal through the Air Force or via the State, it's yet another expense.
My first question..Just where is this 1000 population town of Salcha???
I am not opposed to transportation infrastructure such as a rail link through Deltana into the Canadian rail system but any transportation infrastructure development should complement and support energy infrastructure development. Energy infrastructure is the priority, nothing else can develop without energy. With affordable energy costs will come down for all commodities and many enterprises would become possible. DistantThunder and Fairbanksgas have posted many excellent ideas for solid development projects for the Interior. Develop propane/ethane for energy and economic development, Build gasoline storage facilities and propane distribution infrastructure, then the railroad.
Salcha is not a town; it's a roadside community which starts at Eielson's south boundary around MP335 and ends at the FNSB boundary at Banner Creek.
The Army simply wants to get to the MOA across the river. They don't really give two hoots about the rest of the rail; that's a different pot of money. There was about $40M that was earmarked last year for the bridge itself, IIRC.
The guys that did the core drills this fall said the soils go straight to *** on the other side of the river, so this will still keep things interesting. I happened to have an opportunity to talk to one of the drilling crew about how things were going while they were out there.
For you johnny-come-latelies, you can read up on the routes a bit at
www.northernrailextension.com
I am aware the military built the supply road into Alaska; thanks.
I'm wondering how the sam hill you managed to interprete all that from my posts. The railroad has had a broadbrushed right of way through Salcha to Delta since the 70's. I do not see 'no how no way' in my writing.
The interest in the Army wanting to get across the river to the military training areas by other means besides air and ice roads has been renewed in recent years.
Many Salchans expected the rail to cross the Tanana River at Flag Hill, where there's lots of shot rock material to use for bank stabilization, so we were surprised last fall when they announced they were going to put the bridge in off Tom Bear. The material is tentatively slated to be brought up from Cantwell the last time we had a community meeting for said bank stabilization.
I don't know what you're calling a 'stable mountain range' in Salcha, given the Alaska Range is on the other side of the river. The bridge crossing is in a pretty flat area; approach from the Rich being a regularly flooded area.
Again, familiarize yourself with the routes at www.northernrailextension.com; link to the maps is via the 'proposed routes' link in the first paragraph.
Go to a meeting and get it straight out of them, then.
Does anyone know of any recent development in the south fairbanks bypass proposals for the railroad? it's been some time since i've heard any fuss about it but with all of our recent epa violations perhaps it's time to heat the debate back up. this bridge could help be a part of that if it can go through both directions to delta and to nenana. for those unfamiliar with the idea, bringing the railroad south of fairbanks to the tanana side would help our cities air pollution by moving much of the heaviest polluting vehicles (diesel powered loaders and tractor trailers) to a less centralized location. If we do not get our particulate violations under control in a few years, epa will love to step in and "help" us with it. two things cause most of our particulate emmisions, industrial diesel motors, and wood stoves. commercial vehicles will more than likely remain immune to IM as they always have, but i'm pretty sure IM'ing our homes is not a far stretch of the imagination. think about having your house pass an IM test every 2 years before you run out to say NO to this bridge. please people, look at all available information before making a decision. using army money to start a project that could lead to reduced traffic in middle area's of fairbanks, reduced air quality violations and keeping epa off our case. this project is worth careful scrutiny, and if we play it right can benefit us greatly in the long run. i'd like to hear more information on the intended use of the bridge. Stated clearly in writing if it will be available for private and commercial use, or strictly military.
Military only, for now. The original funding for the bridge itself is DOD money. The survey off the Richardson Highway to the staging area was done this summer.
Earlier post from last year.
http://www.newsminer.com/news/2008/apr/2...
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