Religious bigotry
Published Wednesday, October 1, 2008
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Stumble It!Sept. 26, 2008
To the editor:
I read the AP article by Garance Burke yesterday with the headline “Palin once blessed to be free from ‘witchcraft’” (News-Miner on-line edition, Sept. 25) and immediately thought, “what a stupid article.”
I was thinking last night about what makes this article stupid, and then I watched the video and have even more complaints.
To begin with, “witchcraft” is mentioned only at the end of Muthee’s prayer and not as its main focus, but it is the main focus of this article because the author is looking for controversy. When a Kenyan talks about witchcraft, it’s way different than when an American talks about witchcraft. Where’s your cultural sensitivity or foreign policy experience, Mr. Garance Burke?
The main focus of Mr. Muthee’s talk was that Christians are to participate in making their community better by participating in its leadership (in economics, education, the media and politics) by being involved and demonstrating righteousness and integrity. The main focus of his prayer for Sarah Palin was asking God to favor, provide for and protect her. As another commentor said, churches around the world pray for their leaders in a similar way and it isn’t particularly newsworthy.
The article is expressly designed to stir up controversy, but the basis for controversy is even worse than the article. The reasons many Americans (who didn’t watch the video but only read the biased article) find this “scary” or “ridiculous” seem to be:
1. Their religion (or lack of it) is obviously much more enlightened than Sarah’s/Muthee’s.
2. If anyone says anything bad about “witchcraft,” it must be religious intolerance.
No. 1 is religious (or atheistic) intolerance at its best.
No. 2 is just a subtle variation of No. 1. It often presumes that “we” are enlightened enough to see that all religions are really the same, even though the people who practice them don’t think so.
Can’t we have some real tolerance, please? Any religious community that wants to improve their community by getting people with integrity into places of power should be celebrated, don’t you think?
Community Discussion
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Considering that I have seen the tape of Mr. Muthee telling a story about how he ran a woman, who he claims was a witch, out of a village because she was causing accidents with her witch craft. I would like to ask you who it is that neeeds to learn about tolerence.
It is 2008, and a religious leader that our esteemed governor greatly respects is talking about witchcraft. He takes pride in running witches out of villages and ruining lives. Talk about tolerance. Sounds like a stupid movie to me, but unfortunately fact is more ridiculous than fiction.
Believe in witches, run them out of villages...sorry, you're an intolerant idiot. Support that person...you're an intolerant idiot also.
That's so true Nathan. I watched the video and thought..."What?!"
You describe it exactly as it is. In fact, Not only was the witch mention not the main focus, it was barely even a sidenote, if that.
Intolerance aside, I should preface by saying it is encouraging she has not imposed religiosity on the rest of us...so far.
She was pentecostal until a few years ago. Pentecostals believe some wacky stuff (aside from the usual christian myths) such as faith healing, a millenial reign of christ, and a literal creation history of the Earth (begat...begat...begat...etc for ~6000 years). Somewhere in on of the AOG position papers I read, they also state "...scripture does not contradict itself..." So we have someone whose life experience is filled with thoughts of the end of Earth as we know it, viewed as a good thing, and who has been taught to rationalize a book which is notoriously inconsistent and often contradictory to modern scientific knowledge.
If elected, we can only hope she continues to keep her personal beliefs to herself, but the really important message is that we need to divorce religion from politics.
Every time the DNM prints anything about religion it brings about a war of words and opinions, along with name calling. What's the point? The believers are not going to change their minds and the unbelievers are not going to change their's. Seems like someone is getting a pretty good laugh from all the bickering. One thing is for sure, we're all going to die some day and then you'll have your answers, one way or another.
Danny
You know, I don't know what to think exactly about all this, but therubberroomhotel started us out with a comment that makes me wonder: Why do we actually defend our wrong acts by using the acts we're actually denouncing? Example: "we should all have religious tolerance, but I don't have to be tolerant of people who aren't tolerant." That's not an example of relgious tolerance! Do you only tolerate people when it's convenient? Another of my favorites: "Sarah Palin is a bad VP candidate because she doesn't have experience...and that's exactly why nobody should bring up experience when it comes to Obama" I mean, seriously, like either one of them or not, accusing one because of the other is just plain stupid. So, what it appears many of you believe is that two wrongs don't make a right until YOU'RE wronged....right?
I should note though, my comment about Palin/Obama's experience was not meant to derail the discussion....I hope my point can be larger than that particular narrow subject.
2 words rev wright!
You people are really ignorant at times. Regardless as to what she believes God is still real. Wether you all choose to except it or deny. Someone said the bible is contradictory, that is because you are readying and don't even have a mind to understand what you are reading. You get on here and complain about everything, but never have answers to nothing. The world as we once knew it is in turmoil, and you wonder why, it's because of people like you all. No GOD No Peace.
I watched the video and, indeed, the reference to witchcraft was not the main point of the blessing. The main point, as I heard it, was that God should "infiltrate government" and "education" through Sarah Palin. I'm sorry, but unless you want to move to a different country - the United States of America has this thing called SEPARATION of church and state. This is so because the founders wanted a government and country that tolerated all religions; they did not want to form a theocracy. That is why religious schools are PRIVATE institutions and not public. We know that Palin wants to have creationism and "intelligent" design taught in public schools, which decries the separation of church and state and is precisely what Mr. Muthee was advocating. In the U.S., teaching religious beliefs in government-supported schools is wrong. Sarah Palin doesn't seem to support the separation of church and state, probably because she doesn't understand why it is such an important foundation that this country is built upon.
haha!! 1manofGod, I choose to except the existence of god!
And just as a reminder, aside from resources and sexual inadequacy, religion is the third-most primary reason FOR war, and probably the first-most persuasive argument used as leverage in gaining public support for a war (crusades, 30-year war, IRA, etc...).
Nathan,
Mr. Muthee's crusade against Mama Jane, a fortune teller, nearly got her killed and resulted in her having to leave her home and her town... all for the "crime" of being a fortune teller in Muthee's spiritual warzone.
How would you like it if some religious crackpot were to do to you what Muthee did to Mama Jane? You wouldn't like it and I bet neither did Mama Jane. So don't try to tell me that Muthee is a garden variety preacher. Muthee is a thug who advocates violence against infidels. Here is a clip of a sermon Muthee gave at King's Gate Church...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsnrIVj9I...
US politicians should be standing against radical zealots like Muthee, not praying with them.
DE
akjak---I will ask you to give an example of Palin governing the state where she clearly used her religious convictions.
akjak:
The United States Constitution along with the bill of rights nowhere uses the term "Separation of Church and State" What the first amendment, which is used to preach the separation, states is: "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise therof..." The separation term came from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the first amendment as creating a "wall of separation" between church and state. This letter was in response to concerns posted to him by the Danbury Baptists that the government might establish a state church which our forfathers fled from in Britain and is one of the basis of our country's establishment - the ability to worship or not worship as each individual sees fit. So the "separation of church and state" is not a law but dogmatic doctrine drawn from a letter and various people's interpretations of the first amendment. What the amendment actually says is that the government cannot stop the establishment of religion nor can they establish religion as well they cannot legally prohibit anyone from exercising their religion within the legal limits. So, if an elected official in our country chooses to use their personal moral compass from their religious beliefs as a guideline for how they operate and the decisions they make they are not breaking the law and are protected by the first amendment in doing so.
Knicmark,
You are correct in pointing out that leaders in the US are free to make decisions based on what they believe Bronze Age myths require of them but as rationality and science advance the judgment of leaders who make decisions based on what they believe Bronze Age myths require of them is increasingly being questioned.
DE
Here's the crust of the biscuit --
"When a Kenyan talks about witchcraft, it’s way different than when an American talks about witchcraft. Where’s your cultural sensitivity or foreign policy experience, Mr. Garance Burke?"
I will agree that when this particular Kenyan talks about witchcraft, it is way different than the vast majority of Americans. However, it is NOT different than many people in America thought of witchcraft about 400 years ago. Remember that whole Salem witch trials thingy? Remember the hangings, burnings and whatnot that were going on at that time in history?
The author of this letter is advocating that we put aside the last 4 hundred years of progress and enlightenment in order to support a proudly self proclaimed witch hunter. Moreover, the author finds it completely acceptable that our governor and the vice presidential candidate for the entire nation buys into this primitive 400+ year old mentality - a mentality that had been abandoned by reasonable rational people for centuries. A mentality that characterizes a shameful bigotted piece of our history.
Yet, apparently, we are supposed to ignore the fact the Palin still holds these ridiculous beliefs - as evidenced by her participation in the ceremony as well as her praising this twisted back-a$$wards idiot a couple of years later.
As if the original letter didn't provide enough outrage, this article pours salt in the wounds by denying that there is anything wrong with dredging up bigotted, intolerant, murderous beliefs of the past and catapulting them right to the oval office.
Frankly, I'm just as sickened by this letter as I was by the original story.
What's next? A return to black enslavement? Child labor? Pole cat fighting? Pressed military? The taking of woman and slaves during war? All of these things were at one point in the past completely acceptable, just like believing in magic and harassing witches.
Really people, why haven't we, as an intelligent evolving society, gotten past all of this insanity yet?
Let me get this straight,
In this Presidential election cycle:
1. Mitt Romney HAD to explain his Mormon religious views and beliefs in a major PUBLIC speech at Texas A&M. Why?
2. Senator Barrak H. Obama HAD a decades long relation with a vile, racist, hateful and bigoted Preacher. The National Press gave him a pass. Why?
3. Governor Sarah Palin who is a practicing Christian, who used to be a Pentecostal, who had a Mr. Muthee say a prayer, that mentioned witchcraft.
OMG!!!! That's it, there's the proof ...get her off the ticket and choose someone more suitable. Hmmmm, Jeremiah Wright, The Reverend Jackson, Louis Farrakan, A Wicken Meister maybe, maybe someone from the Religion of Earth.
You damned Conservatives and Republicans you just can't stop clinging to your blbles and guns! Oh crap!! ...I resemble that!!!
IF I had more confidence that Sarah Palin would keep church and state separate than I wouldn't mind what her religious beliefs were. Obscure sect, pagan, Muslim, whatever, it wouldn't matter because it would not be affecting her decisions on matters of state. We do have freedom of religion and I support that freedom.
BUT I fear that like Bush and some other right wing politicians she may interject religion into politics. This makes it even more worrisome that her religious adviser was a actual witchhunter who apparently did not hesitate to incite a mob to drive a fortune teller from her home.
There are no atheists in foxholes.
Akpatriot--she has been in politics since 1996. Do some research and find out if she has used her religious views to do her job as a politician.
Also, when in the footage did you ever hear Palin provide her views of witchcraft? This man was a guest speaker at her church, that decided to pray for her future in politics. She allowed that to happen, but when did she stand up and say I believe in witchcraft? This is what Newsreader would have you to believe. I'm not buying it.
That no atheists in foxholes statement is crap. Conversely, it can be argued that a sizable percentage of professed "christians" live as practicing atheists. Likely it is these people, who are responsible for the supposed battlefield conversions that gave rise to that presumptive and arrogant statement.
Reginald,
Wasilla Assembly of God, which is the church Sarah Palin attended for most of her life and which she continues to go to for special meetings, adheres to the same radical Apostolic-Prophetic doctrine Thomas Muthee adheres to. Wasilla AoG is not a typical Assembly of God congregation. It is part of a cross-denominational Apostolic-Prophetic movement with some very strange ideas which warrant scrutiny.
JAO,
You couldn't be more wrong...
http://jonathanturley.org/2008/09/28/ath...
DE
I for one agrees with Dora, Samantha should of turned Darren into a toad and be done with it.
On a more serious note, aren't our troops and those before fighting so we have the right to worship as we feel is right for us. Our ancestors were ran out of the old country because of their beliefs.
One of the ten commandments states that we are not the ones to hold judgement.
Look, I'm an atheist and by no means a biblical scholar, but I'm pretty sure that's not a commandment. Perhaps you could shoehorn that definition into the "...shall not bear false witness..." but otherwise, I think you have to look elsewhere.
As to the meat of your argument/question "...aren't our troops and those before fighting so we have the right to worship as we feel is right for us."
You could perhaps construe the Revolutionary war into this context, but that would only be part of the story. Otherwise, our troops now are fighting wars that seem to shift purpose with each year. To get rid of a dictator who likes yellow cake... To install a friendly, democratically-based administration... To protect US interests in a geopolitically strategic region...
"Senator Barrak H. Obama HAD a decades long relation with a vile, racist, hateful and bigoted Preacher. The National Press gave him a pass. Why?"
what news coverage were you watching? it was repeated ad neauseum on every single cable news channel... network news... newspapers... and news magazines. you know... "the liberal media". not to mention the nonstop coverage of it on conservative talk radio.
either you are delusional or have a highly selective memory. apparently selective along partisan lines (surprise surprise) as in your little list you didn't even mention Hagee.
The old axiom "judge not lest ye be judged" comes from Matthew 7.
DE
JAO --
I will no more turn to god in my final minutes that you will turn to Allah, Buddha, or Zeus. To claim otherwise is absolutely ridiculous.
Hopefully, if you think about it for a few minutes, you'll be able to realize the truth of what I'm saying.
Sorry - should say "...in my final minutes thaN you will turn..."
X23
The NATIONAL media gave Obama a pass ...AND STILL does. What planet are you from X23 ...ABC, CBS, SNL, NBC???
THE FIX IS IN!!!
You people are oh so ignorant, and just think Jesus still chose to die for you. Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
1manofGod,
You're itching to get your post toasties and these folks on here will oblige you. Don't say you haven't been warned.
Reginald, Reginald, Reginald...
Fox News,
Huffington Post,
MSNBC,
CNN.
All good Liberal media outlets have been posting Rev Wright stories since Hillary was running. It was one of those wedge issues. Now that Palin is fresh meat, you get your panties in a wrinkle. Perhaps if McCain had vetted Palin appropriately, these stories would not be running.
1manofGod (couldn't let you down KS) --
Why are you going on about that habitual liar (Jesus)?
You do realize how many lies he told right? For instance, he says you can have anything you pray for... Yet many people have been praying for me to be saved (or to drop dead). And, guess what? Hasn't worked yet... lol!
Scripture Time!
And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." (Matthew 21:21-22)
Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst. (Matthew 18:19-20)
Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours. (Mark 11:24-25)
If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you. (John 15:7)
---
So, have you managed to throw any mountains into the sea lately? No?
Has ANYONE EVER MANAGED TO THROW A MOUNTAIN INTO THE SEA? NO?
Well, I guess that Jesus fellow was a bald faced liar then, wasn't he?
As far as the end of days goes, the bible repeatedly lies about that too, claiming it would happen during the generation in which he lived (multiple times). Read the second to last sentence of this scripture very carefully, ok?
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. "Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. In the same way, when you see all these things, know that he is near, at the gates. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Matthew 24:29-35)
Matthew 16:28 “There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
John's Predictions --
John believes “the time is at hand,” and that the things that he writes about in Revelation will “shortly come to pass.” Revelations 1:1-3
John quotes Jesus (1900 years ago) as saying he will come “quickly.” Revelations 22:7, 12 & 20
John thinks he is living in “the last times.” He “knows” this because he sees so many antichrists around. 1 John 2:18
John says that the antichrist was already present at the time 1 John was written. 1 John 4:3
John quotes Jesus (1900 years ago) as saying he will come “quickly.” Revelations 3:11, 22:7, 12 & 20
Paul’s Predictions --
Paul thought that the end was near and that Jesus would return soon after he wrote these words. Philippians 4:5
Paul believes he is living in the “last days.” Hebrews 1:2
Paul believed that Jesus would come “in a little while, and will not tarry.” Hebrews 10:37
---
So, as you can see, this whole rapture thing is nearly 2000 years overdue. How long are you gonna hang on to these lies and ridiculous predictions? Isn't 2 MILLENIA enough for you to get it through your head that it is not going to happen?
[All biblical quotes and paraphrases taken from evilbible.com - it is a wonderful site - everyone should read it!]
As an ex republican who broke from the party when Bush ran for office the second term, here is the way I feel about Palin: I'm sure she and her family are fine people, but she has been thrown into a position she will never be able to handle. We have had a president for the last 7+ years who was not intelletually ready for the job as president, and look where this nation is today. We cannot afford to have someone a heartbeat away from the presidency who is not mentally ready to handle the enormous requirements of the job. Palin is NOT ready.
But Obama is? How so.
You Christian bashers are so strange. It's like you have your own religion, which is to bash the Christian faith and paint believers as kooks.
Do you know what's really strange? There were no Christians in the old Soviet Union. There are no Christians in Communist China. There are no Christians in North Korea. There used to be no Christians in Cuba.
Lenin, Stalin, Chairman Mao, Fidel are laughing in their graves right now. Oh, my mistake. Fidel is still alive. Darn it. (I can say that, since I'm not a Christian myself.)
Thank you newsreader. I knew you woldn't let me down. I'll save my answers for you till a later date. Get ready cause here I come.
I can't read all this, I feel like I need to be cleansed! Alot of religion haters in Alaska huh?
lagirl - I was pro-Palin until recently. Part of why I was pro-Palin was because though she was religious she did not interject it into politics as governor.
But along came her nomination to VP and suddenly the Palin that was cooperating with the legislative investigation of Troopergate suddenly has undergone a Karl Rove style makeover. Gone is the bipartisanship, now she is an attack dog. Gone is open and transparent government, now we have Bush and Nixon style cover-ups and lies.
I no longer trust her after that makeover. I don't think the country should trust her.
I don't care whether Palin believes in witchcraft or not. I don't care what religion she is or even that she is religious except in how that affects what she does with her power as a politician.
I understand that her religion teaches her that she should prefer that abstinence be taught rather than more complete sex education. That abortion laws should be changed in such ways that if enacted into law would severely restrict the rights of women and likely lead to many illegal abortions.
I don't know that Palin will interject her religious views into the political realm, but with her recent changes towards Rovian politics I no longer trust that she won't.
knicmark, You said, "if an elected official in our country chooses to use their personal moral compass from their religious beliefs as a guideline for how they operate and the decisions they make they are not breaking the law and are protected by the first amendment in doing so." And, I agree wholeheartedly and have nothing whatsoever against a politician who has faith in God. It would be nice, however, if they stuck to the entire teachings of Jesus if they claim they are Christian instead of picking and choosing the parts they like while ignoring the parts they don't like.
What I am against, and which the Constitution alludes to in both written text and through clarification by Thomas Jefferson, is that the government can not establish religion, as you also said. What that means to me is that the government shall not bring specific religious practices into governmental entities, such as schools. Hence, there can be no teaching either of creationism or "intelligent design" in public schools, which are both things that Palin encourages.
Anton Chekhov (paraphrased): if you put a gun on the mantlepiece in Act 1, it must be fired no later than the end of Act 3. (Of a three act play).
Flirting with Palin earns Pakistani president a fatwa
A leading religious leader condemned Asif Ali Zardari's comments to Sarah Palin at the UN.
FUNDAMENTALIST == FUMBLEMENTALIST [mostly]
All groups in human religious & political societies periodically have radical extremist problems in their membership.
Stressful Lifestyle incubates fumblementalism.
What are the causes of Stressful Lifestyle?
#1 cause is natural & manmade Environmental Destruction.
#1 cause of manmade Environmental Destruction is VIOLENCE.
#1 cause of violence is Institutionalized Militarism
When calculated in dollars or tonnage of weaponry America exports the most violence worldwide.
Breaking the Cycle of Violence Helps Promote World Peace
Good Sustainable Architecture Helps Promote World Peace
Make a little kid smile forever...
Take the gun off the mantlepiece and lock it in the gun cabinet.
Here's another way to look at it. If religion is crap then we live, we party, we die, end of story. If religion is based on fact then we live, we struggle to do whats right, we die, and we are judged. You better be damn sure you are right if you go with the party plan.
akjak, don't you realize that creationism was taught in America's public schools for hundreds of years?
seanpatzer, seanpatzer, seanpatzer...
"...good Liberal media outlets..." that's an OXYMORON. Thanks for the laugh.
newsreader,
I talked to God last night and again this morning. I didn't hear no trumpets, didn't see no bright lights, didn't get no new revelations, so am I to think he doesn't exhist? No! There is something that seperates us, Faith. Faith, the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. By Faith I will continue to believe until I either die or Christ returns. Faith built this country and Faith will see many followers of Christ thru till the end, no matter what the end brings. You can't buy it, sell it or give it away. You say you've read the Bible multiple times and I have no reason to think otherwise. I have Faith that all the searching and studying you did was not in vain. Most people on here that say they don't believe in God do it out of ignorance. You are not ignorant of God's word and I just don't believe you when you say you don't believe. There is a lot of things about today's religious folks that I don't agree with, such as, Magic shows and money apperaing out of no where, tongues, telling the future, and the list goes on. The answers we seek are written in the words of the the Bible. You can deny it, but you can't hide it. Have a good one,
Danny
akjak---
Like a public religion, there is no mention of "public schools" in the constitution.
Let's have choice in schools.
Wow, I missed all these fine comments yesterday!
To reiterate what I hoped was my main point, to both sides: stop acting so arrogant and enlightened. You don't necessarily have it all figured out.
You don't have to agree with people who believe differently than you do, but at least try not to perversely misinterpret or misrepresent what they believe.
If we don't respect people with minority views, no matter how "false" or "dangerous", we are starting the witch hunt thing all over again.
Nathan,
Respect is defined as holding something in high regard. Why should I hold in high regard that which I consider false? I believe in tolerating religious beliefs but I feel no need to respect them.
An example of religious intolerance would be what Thomas Muthee did to Mama Jane.
DE
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