Salary talks dominate school board meeting
Published Wednesday, May 7, 2008
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Stumble It!The Fairbanks North Star Borough School District Board of Education Meeting started with recognition of 64 retiring district staff members but quickly focused on teachers returning to work in the fall.
The one-hour limit on public comments on nonagenda items was nearly reached Tuesday night by concerned parents, teachers and community members.
Two topics dominated the period: the cut of a teaching position at Two Rivers Elementary and the negotiations between the district and the Fairbanks Education Association, a union that represents about 1,000 teachers in the district.
Mediation between the two groups started Tuesday. The last time an agreement was decided upon was in 2005.
The main concern voiced by teachers giving testimony to the board was the lack of increase in the teacher salary schedule versus the rising cost of living, especially fuel prices.
“These are not traditional times, and we need nontraditional salaries,” FEA President Steve Laroe told the school board.
The meeting also attracted testimony from Bill Bjork, president of the National Education Association-Alaska and a former president of FEA.
Bjork spoke on the importance of offering teachers a higher salary in the negotiations.
Applause came from the crowd and a supporter even carried a poster covered with receipts that read, “My expenses rise significally, so should my salary.”
The school district and FEA also differ on the issue of how competitive the school district is.
Laroe warned that the district was not competitive or attractive to new teachers while a negotiations overview prepared by Mike Fisher, chief financial officer for the district, states the district feels it is more than competitive.
The overview also stated, “the district has offered an increased pay and benefits packaged averaging between 10 and 11 percent per employee over the next three years.”
Although negotiations have just begun, Laroe said the FEA wants a final offer by May 8 to allow its members time to vote on it.
As for items on the agenda, the school board approved the 2009-10 academic calendar after hearing public comments and votes and several drafts.
The board also green-lighted a plan for a central kitchen design.
Assistant Superintendent Dave Ferree said the central kitchen area has a straightforward design, which will cut down on construction costs and features include emergency generators and a test kitchen.
The next step will be taking bids from contractors, and work is scheduled for June.
Community Discussion
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the district has offered an increased pay and benefits packaged averaging between 10 and 11 percent per employee over the next three years
I wish I had this coming to me. Im just happy to have a job and be able to pay my bills.
I think the raise should be based on the performance of the students - That would be fair, wouldn't it?
Using the FNSB School District Data -
SAT Scores -
Reading - 1997 - 540; 2007 - 524
Math - 1997 - 526; 2007 - 520
------------------------------------
ACT Scores -
Reasoning - 1997 - 22.8; 2007 - 21.6
Math - 1997 - 21.9; 2007 - 21.1
Reading - 1997 - 24.1; 2007 - 23
Seems like over a ten year period ALL scores have dropped. Therefore - shouldn't salaries drop also?
Oh - In reading the Graduation requirements in in a .pdf on the School District Website I found the following quote quite funny
"One-quarter (.25) credit for the Physical Education requirement may be waived for each full season of participation in approved
interscholastic or intramural athletic competition, retroactive to the
beginning of time."
I do think its awesome you can get credit for intramural sports all the way back to the beginning of time....too cool....would love to know the sports that existed way back then
Football (the rules were different - "Whatever it takes to win)
Stickball (very popular among many Lower-48 Native American tribes)
Running (we call it Track and Field nowadays)
Dog Mushing (at least 2,000 years and maybe as much as 4,000 years)
Grizzly wrestling - wait, that wasn't a sport, that was a matter of survival......
Seriously, the school district if facing the same quandary that the private sector is facing. If they don't increase salaries they will lose teachers as they, like all other employers, start chasing the bigger bucks in a futile attempt to keep pace with ever increasing cost of living.
The "Good Times" are over. Those who don't read history are destined to repeat it - and we are destined to repeat the double-digit inflation of the 1970s. Hang on to your hats, it's gonna be a rough, rough ride.
"Nontraditional salaries"?
What does that mean? Just more money, or do they want fuel vouchers, free cable tv, and double Alaska Airline miles?
akguy: "I think the raise should be based on the performance of the students - That would be fair, wouldn't it?"
It might be fair, if (1) every class came from the same socio-economic background and could be expected to perform equally well with equally good teachers, and (2) teacher performance were miraculously shown to be the sole influence on student performance.
Neither of these is the case. From school to school, and even from class to class, students come from radically different backgrounds. Some come from families that are healthy, where children feel safe and secure, and where the parents give their support to classroom activities -- and some don't.
There are influences on academic performance far beyond those of the teacher. Whatever evaluations you do of teachers, you *must* take those into account. Standardized test scores don't do that.
--Paul Adasiak
Has anybody heard about No Child Left Behind??? Teachers are basically paid by how well kids do on tests....and guess what it isn't working!! Bush's ingenious idea takes funding away from schools that do poorly when obviously they are the ones that need it.
This article skews the offer made by in the mediations. Teachers are not being offered up to 10% salary increase. Their original offer was a 0% increase!
I'm surprised at the lack of support from the community on here.
Paul -
You must not have seen any of those those feel good movies where one inner-city teacher or principal turned kids around and makes a measurable difference?
I think you sell the kids short because they come from a broken family or lower economic strata -
If all else in a child's life fails, the school and the teachers should be our last firewall against ignorance!
I work with and hire young adults - and I can say for certain that the mark of a good employee is not his status in society or other influences - it ends up being his/her 'heart'. Teachers are the ones that can influence this for the better - they probably see the kids more than some of the parents.
We can make excuses or fix the problem - How else do we hold teachers accountable if we can't use their results? Maybe pay them based on attendance or their fashion sense?
If you have no performance measures and no standards - you have no gauge for success. I would love to go to my boss and tell him that he needs to give me a 10% raise...but not to base it on any performance measures....get real
Paul- I find your comments to be one of the problems that is cause for concern in a great many circles. There are too many people that want to keep 'investigating' or 'reseaching' for the hidden problems. To me, that is someone that was hired or works in a field that needs to justify there own existance by never getting on board with a solution, only offering varied reasons why things wont work or need to be improved. As much as that is needed, it is also a hinderance. There has to be a time when enough is enough and a path is chosen. Pandering just doesnt do it all the time for everything.
Parenting, Parenting, Parenting. It's that simple.
The school district is not being honest with the citizens. They are NOT offering a 10-11 percent raise. They are including the step increases that teachers earn for additional education and service, which do not increase the district's costs. They are including savings to the health insurance plan, which were achieved by the teacher-led health committee, which allows teachers to keep more of their current salary---that's not a raise. Finally, they are offering a stipend to teachers who are maxed out on the salary schedule, which affects just a few teachers.
The district is still offering a 0 percent raise over three years.
As far as student test results go, I wouldn't mind my salary being based on the performance of my first grade students, most of whom are reading at the 2nd-4th grade level. But what about the kid who has increased 13 months in reading this year, but who came into first grade at K.0? He's at 1.3 now, but should be at 1.9. And what about the Hispanic girl who is reading English at a much lower level than her classmates? What about the boy who needs special education, but whose parents won't agree to have him pulled out of class to get the one-on-one help he needs?
Most of my first graders write at a level above most middle school students (and many high school students), but I can't guarantee that they will get as much writing instruction and practice in 2nd-6th grade. I wish I could, but I can't.
Akguy,
I invite you to come in and take over my class for ONE day. Then you tell me teachers are over paid. You have NO clue what it takes dealing with everything that teachers deal with. Maybe you work at a job where you arrive at 8 and leave at 5 and if something didn't get done, you'll get it tomorrow OR you can work OT. Guess what, no such luck in this profession! I invite all of you teacher critics to come in and sub for a week, then we will talk about Escalante and how we all should magically make every kid learn.
AKGUY,
The "10%" offered by the district was not a pay increase. It is mostly anticipated savings on health care. They don't know for sure how much savings there will be. Not to mention the fact that the district will be seeing those savings as well. It is not a pay increase as suggested by the quote in the article. It will not affect teacher's base pay. The quote also makes it sound like the district is offering that savings every year. That 10% estimate is over three years, not every year. IF that estimate comes true, it would not even cover inflation. The district's offer was a 0% increase on base pay over the next 3 years. Now, if you really think that teachers don't deserve any pay increase, at all, over the next three years, than I don't know what to say. Anchorage teachers were recently given a 12% raise over 3 years and Mat-Su was given a 11% raise over 3 years, I believe. Are Fairbanks' teachers less valuable??? Is the FNSBSD really competitive like it is suggested in the article???
As for the idea of merit pay for teachers. It just doesn't work. As Paul said so well, there are just too many factors that determine how well a child does in school. If a teacher had control over all of those other factors, than I would say it is a good idea.
Teachers are worth every penny they make. I'd rather go fly another combat tour than teach primary grades. I know, 'cause I go to my grandson's school often and keep involved in his academic life. My hat's off to all teachers. Keep up the good work.
"The "10%" offered by the district was not a pay increase. It is mostly anticipated savings on health care."
There's a statement from someone who hasn't worked in the private sector for the last 10 years. Hint - there are never "savings" in health care costs. Teachers health insurance premiums have likely INCREASED a minimum of 10 percent a year. I will give a free latte to the first teacher who can tell me who pays those insurance premium increases.
Funny -
everyone seems to have missed my focus and went right to the money....
I am all for paying you whatever the cost - but I want results....
not 'there's this one Hispanic kid who has a hurt elbow and lives in a hole on Farmer's Loop' comments....
You all chose the profession - and I admire that....now all I ask is that the kids the public entrusts you with come out of HS with rudimentary English and Math skills. NOT YOGA!!!!!
For the 2nd grade teacher whose kids are ahead of the curve - I commend you...If they are so far ahead in 2nd grade - which grade is failing them over the long term?
Big Mike,
We'll have to arrange a meeting for you to get me that latte'. The answer is the teachers have paid the majority of those increases. In the last contract, the amount that the district paid for health care was capped, so every year when there was an increase, the teachers paid the difference. Funny how the district fails to mention that. Now they want to call "savings" a pay increase. Funny how they never called the increases in health care a "pay cut". You can't have it both ways.
I agree with you about the cost "savings". Now you see why teachers are so upset. They want to call that a raise, when it isn't. When I apply for a loan, they want to know my base pay. I guess I can just tell them that I am saving on my health care, so go ahead and give me that loan.
Teachers should have one of the highest paying jobs. I could never do it and not everyone can. This applies to everyone even if they don’t have children because the kids in school now are our future leaders and the person (besides the parents) who has the most influence over your children is their Teacher. Have you ever sat in on a class or gone on a field trip with elementary students? Wow if we could bottle the energy that they produce we would have our answer to the fuel costs. Have you ever heard how disrespectful older children are? It would be nice to say that every parent actually parents their children and the truth of it they don’t and where does it show up-- in the classroom. So not only do teachers have to teach the children school subjects but more often than not have to do half of the parents job. And BTW just because YOU do not receive a raise shouldn’t be an argument to why someone else shouldn’t. And I would bet that most teachers spend a lot more money out of their OWN pocket on their jobs then you ever would on yours.
God Bless Teachers and thank you!
The "No Dentist Left Behind" story (http://www.trelease-on-reading.com/no-de...) has been floating about by e-mail and the WWW for a few years now, so you may already have seen it.
For those who don't care to read it: imagine that dentists are to be evaluated, licensed, and assigned by the state, based on the "performance" of their patients -- namely, how many cavities they have. Patients who take stock in the ratings and find that their dentists are rated "poor" may switch to another dentist. Dentists' with low ratings will lose their licenses.
The problem is, this system doesn't take into account all the factors *other* than the dentist that can affect dental hygiene. The dentist working in a poor rural area will end up rated worse than the one working in the wealthy suburb. If the school district puts new candy machines in the schools, cavities will soar and the dentist's rating will plummet. The good dentist, working where he or she is needed most, will most suffer a poor reputation.
The points being (for anybody who's missed them): (1) Lots of social factors outside teachers' control; (2) test scores, grades, or graduation rates alone are not likely to be fair measures of teachers' work, and they alone cannot form the basis of a rewards system.
akguy: "You must not have seen any of those those feel good movies where one inner-city teacher or principal turned kids around and makes a measurable difference?"
Oh, I've seen several. But have you seen any of those feel-good movies where an entire inner-city school district turned kids around, all at once? I'll wager not, since examples like Jaime Escalante are exceptional. That is why movies are made about them. Do you expect every single teacher to be a Jaime Escalante? Or do propose to say to teachers, "You must be an Hollywood-worthy inspiration to all your underprivileged students and single-handedly turn their downward-spiraling lives around, goddammit, or no pay raises for you!"
Incidentally, what is your prejudice against yoga? Do you equally disapprove of basketball, weight training, or track?
THE 10% IS NOT A PAY INCREASE, ITS A REDUCTION IN THE AMOUNT THE TEACHERS ARE FORCED TO PAY IN HEALTH CARE. The Fairbanks teachers did not see a pay increase last time either. The teachers are required and asked to perform an incredible amount of duties throughout the year. Often times they work well into the evening because they care about the students.
Does Fairbanks value it's teachers?
Maybe we need to go to the students themselves and ask about the quality of their education.
I have 2 daughters in high school that are bored to tears. My daughters never have homework, they are getting their work done during class time. They are also on honor roll!
They tell me that when they have a full period class the teacher runs out of teaching material well before class time is over.
This is sad. My oldest daughter says that most of the classes she is in the teacher talks for 15 minutes and then goes and sits at his/her desk and surfs the internet.
I know that this is true, because I have went into classrooms to talk to the teacher and that is exactly where I find them.
I am not getting paid to sit here and type this to you right now, and I do not believe any teacher should be sitting in their classroom while getting paid to teach and not doing just that.
It is a totally different situation in elementary school. But, I will say that teachers get A LOT of breaks during the day. They get a break when the kids go to PE, Music & Library. Also, their hours are about the best in the work force. I also know their insurance plans are awesome.
I think the problem here all lies in that huge Administration building on 7th Ave. Someone needs to take a look into how many employees are sitting there out of the public eye and what they are doing. That right there is waste! Maybe if they got rid of that building & some of the people there doing what (I really do not know). Then maybe the people that are actually working could get some extra pay.
When I look at my property tax bill and see how much is going for education, I like to think that someone is getting paid plenty.
Let me end this with a honest question. How do the towns in the villages, and towns without property tax (Tok, Delta) get their schools funded?
If those towns are able to send their children to school and not have any property tax, why do we??? Something just does not seem right with that scenario. Can someone please explain that 1 to me?
Sherry29: Bush schools are entirely funded by the state.
My father (a staunch conservative of the old school when conservatives were still honest) always said that all the fixes and new ideas in education will never do any good unless parents force their kids to do their homework, behave in class, and learn. Thirty years ago he was criticizing left-wing education resolutions. Today he applies that same standard to Bush's No Child Left Behind hogwash (he's a consistent conservative, not many of those left these days).
I had no choice but to do well. If I got in trouble at school or did poorly on my work, I suffered the consequences at home. I graduated college just shy of the honor roll. Without my father forcing the issue, this wouldn't have happened. My children are simply expected to do well, and they do.
Teachers will never be able to solve the problem of poor parenting. It used to be the Democrats who expected them to cure society's ills, now it's the Republicans. There are bad teachers, and we need a way to filter them out of the system, but most are doing the best they can with the students they are given. It's a thankless job, as some of the comments posted above make clear.
Seems like a double standard. Tok & Delta (and many other towns) get full funding from the state and we pay more than we can really afford on our property taxes. Many of those people don't even have children.
I am thankful for the good teachers. Problem is they are so few & far in between (especially when they are high school level). I have personally thanked many of my childrens teachers, even in high school.
There are a lot of kids in school that simply do not care about their education and that is probably not the fault of the teacher (although it can be, I have seen teachers that obviously do not like some of their students). But, when the teacher lets those kids get in his / her way of teaching the rest of the class something needs to be done.
Sherry: State Senator Gary Wilken has made repeated efforts at forcing unincorporated areas of Alaska into boroughs for just this reason. He's never been able to push it through the legislature. I don't know if there's a sufficient property value base in remote areas to meet school costs. Tok & Delta, maybe, but elsewhere not so likely. Anyone out in the village want to offer some insight?
Sorry, I totally get why it is that why. The only thing I can't get my little brain around is WHY are us HOMEOWNERS totally responsible for the education system??
I always have to hear about how the "renters" are also paying property taxes. But, if you are not a Property Owner, then really you have made zero commitment to the community.
Everyone in this community is allowed to vote on something that is going to increase my property tax, whether they are paying a bill to the borough or not.
To me this equals Representation without Taxation.
If renters really believed they were paying "Property Taxes" I doubt school bonds would pass. I actually think sales tax might pass.
Would be interesting to see a vote done by everyone compared to a vote by Property Tax bill payers. Then we would really know what the renters are thinking.
Sory I know this is way off subject.
There are several rural boroughs that do pay a local contribution.
Quality education costs money.
Even poor quality is expensive--look at the rural "colleges".
guppie9
Why not have your union provide the contract for public review. Then you don't have to worry about the districts slants.
I guess I was wrong about the health insurance costs. I wasn't aware that teachers paid the majority of the health insurance premiums. That is unfair. The district should pay the same health insurance percentage that private industry (typically 75 percent of the employees premium and 0 to 50 percent of dependents).
I'm sure if you contacted the school district or FEA, you could get a copy of the contract. As for health insurance, you're not completely wrong. The district does pay about 75 percent of the premium, however, that amount was capped under the last contract so that any increases to the premiums were absorbed by the teachers. The district is offering to pick up a larger percentage of the premium, but our plan is going to change, which should actually save the district an estimated $5 million in healthcare costs. They are saying that this savings is a raise because healthcare won't cost as much.
guppie9
I don't think what the district is doing is wrong. I have done exactly the same thing for my employees. Our health issurance policy has change every year for several years (generally involving an increase to the deductible). Even with the changes, my company's contribution has increased. So I really doubt the district is "saving money" through the healthcare change. I bet the district's share of the premium has increased. Sounds like there is a lot of misinformation out there.
And I bet you are wrong about the contract. Rarely are labor union contracts are available for public review. Its a pity because then the public would know the facts.
The saving money part is what they are telling the teachers. So if the school district isn't really saving any money, I don't know why they would say that. I believe the savings they are talking about is relative to what they are paying currently compared to what it would be under the new system. As for the contract, I honestly don't know if its available to the public or not.
Big Mike
The District pays the vast majority of the cost of premiums for health care.
You can call the district and they will tell you what precentage they pay. IIRC it is over 80%
Assuming that the teacher salary schedule is like other NEA schedules, the primary problem it that it does not vary based on what subject the teacher actually teaches. This results in shortages of special education, mathematics, science, and business teachers and surpluses of history, literature, social studies, and art teachers.
While the real answer to Alaska’s K-12 education problems are to switch to vouchers, I would still support an increase in teachers’ pay, but only if they switched to my version of “nontraditional” salaries and only gave the pay increase to those teachers teaching unpopular subjects (amongst teachers).
As for the intelligent and disciplined high school students who are bored, I again advise them to study and take the SAT and GED, drop out, and enroll in a community college for a year and then transfer to a university. High school as it is currently run is a waste of time.
"Most of my first graders write at a level above most middle school students (and many high school students)," - ungaknunap
How do you know that?
I just don't believe that declaration.
To all you teachers out there: Yeah, you have a hard job. But you also have a 3- month vacation in the summer, plus winter break, plus spring break. That's unheard of in the private sector. Keep that in mind when we are talking about "comparable worth."
And dont forget the VERY generous vacation packages that go along with all of those paid breaks (summer is unpaid, the rest arent)
I believe the general public supports teachers and appreicate what they do. Obviosly not everyone (the Newsminer blog is probably not repsentaive of the general public as most of the people on the blogs don't support anything).
However I think that teachers do themselves an injustice when they misrepresent information. It tends to alienate them from the tax payers. The best example of this is when they compare teachers salary's to salary's for people who work 12 months a year. Most teachers I know have some summer income. That should be included when they make such a comparison.
The teachers are grossly overpaid already and want more ... go figure.
NEA has publicly said that ... we are not interested in education and are only interested in wages and benefits.
I went to school with full classrooms and did just fine. I can even read. These teachers (for the most part .. not all) are not doing a decent job and the Fairbanks schools are rated as some of the lowest in the nation ... sure more money ... lol.
and James's post represents the other side of the misrepresentation. Why must everyone feel they must exagerate to express a view point.
Teachers are only part of the equation here. Students and parents are at least as important to general educational success. Students who don't want to learn (and with parents who don't care about education) are next to impossible to teach, whatever anyone says. I know this first-hand. I have taught at the college level for years, and have the choice of putting my effort toward the students who DO want to learn (since college students are expected to be mature and responsible for themselves), but school teachers don't have this option. They have to try and reach the troublesome, disruptive, and disinterested, as well as the attentive and talented. I do not.
I know several FBX area teachers and can say I am very impressed with their dedication to what they do. They are often in early, and stay late doing preparation work. They have to be essentially parents to 20-30 kids at a time, and also teach them math, science, english etc. etc. at the same time. They have to take care of most kids more of their waking hours than their own parents do. So I don't buy for a second the idea that they are somehow getting an easy and free ride. That is simply a knee-jerk reaction by bitter people who resent paying taxes too much. The people on the receiving end, end up getting castigated by such whining, even though they earn every penny. Such complaints add just add thanklessness to the job, Big M... Still I'm glad to see quite a few positive comments here as well.....
Oh, and anyone who thinks renters don't pay property taxes is living in fdantasy-fog. When I rented you can bet your *** my rent tracked increases in the property tax!!! The landlords I had made no secret of the fact. Though I'm a homeowner now, the idea that renters don't contribute is pure Baloney.
John C.
Fairbanks
A few things to ponder:
An average of 10% salary increase (regardless of step increases or combined salary increases over combined years) would be unheard of in the private business sector in these economic times.
10% puts more money in the teachers pockets and face it, all of our cost of living expenses that are rising are directly linked to the price of oil. 10% increase!!!! Come on, wake up and smell the coffee. While you sit complaining that it isn't a fair enough increase, most of the community will not be getting any salary increase and it sure makes the complaining seem greedy.
Teachers annual salaries are on par with the private sector but consider that their work-year is 9 months. Other than summer classes to continue their education and keep acredited, most teachers have the opportunity to add 5 to 15 thousand in additional income during summer months. Sure, we all choose our own path for employment but most teachers that I knew growing up here always worked the summer months at another job to improve their quality of life.
The money has to come from somewhere ........ and I smell greed. Way to go union reps ..... add some more "bad taste in the mouth" of our community.
Congrats to the School Board and their bargaining team on what seems to me a more than equitable offer to the teachers.
HybridAlaskan and hckywtchr.
I love when people post about things they don't know about. Teachers get...are you ready....a grand total of 3 paid days off per year for personal leave. All of those breaks (summer, winter, spring) are UNPAID leave. Teachers have a contract for 180 days and thats what they get paid for. 170 days with students and 10 days without students (they still work those 10 days, just no students in the classroom). Many teachers that I know have to get a 2nd job in the summer in order to make ends meet.
If you want to compare salaries, lets look at babysitters. How much do people pay for daycare??? Lets go with $5/hour. Assuming an average size classroom and lets say a teacher with 5 years experience, that equates to about $1.35 per kid/hour. That's not counting the extra hours that almost every teacher puts in on the side.
Teachers may not be in it for the money, but as someone else said, we didn't take a vow of poverty either. I still have a family to support. I have a 4 year college degree and must take college courses (paid for by me) in order to maintain my license. I don't think that what we are asking for is unreasonable. The cost of living is going up every year, but the district offers no raise for 3 years???? And the school district says they are competitive.
Let me ask you this. You are looking for a job and one employer says that they will hire you, but guarantees you will not get a pay increase for 3 years. Do you want to work there?? Decent, hardworking, caring teachers are getting out of teaching every year because its just not worth it. No one wants to be berated by the public, deal with unruly students and demanding parents all for a salary that, for some, actually qualifies their family for federal assistance.
This town amazes me. No one wants to pay for anything, but as soon as their house is burglarized or on fire, or their child needs educated, they are the first ones complaining about how not enough is being done.
Your landlord just had you in a corner and raised your rent because he could. Once you are moved in it is a pain to move out & all landlords know this.
I tell you, there is a certain level of money that you can charge for rent. Once it gets above that point it can take a very long time to rent a place out even if it is nice. I see people are trying to charge higher prices in the paper for rent right now, but these places are the ones that sit week after week.
Even with fuel oil & property taxes at an all time high there is no way a person can ask more money for something that depreciates year after year. Especially considering how people take care of things that they do not own.
There're apparently a lot of misers around town who want something for nothing. Who puts up with their kids, allowing them to work in the first place? How much would a daycare/sitter/supervisor cost these people? And that's not even considering the education teachers try to impart. It practically doesn't matter what work one does, if it's government funded there is a certain reactionary segment of people who are automatically going bitch that they're making too much money and benefits. These people hardly ever consider what their tax dollars are buying, they just like to whine. And the greed claim above is a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black . . .
And concealing a zero% 'raise' the way that it is apparently being done here is far from a new tactic. Re-shuffling of the money, then only pointing out only the 'up side' is pretty standard (if dishonest). It's also very easy to see through. A raise that has to be immediately spent on paying the insurance bill is NOT a raise; calling it one is a joke.
John C.
As a current homeowner, I don't like paying taxes anymore than the next person. But I know quite a bit of the reality teachers have to deal with, and I don't begrudge them fair pay for their efforts. And uninformed statements about so-called "breaks" that they get, or that they can make an "extra" salary during the summer, simply show off the authors' ignorance of the subject.
Landlord(S)...I had 3 different ones. One of these made it perfectly clear the ONLY reason he was renting out the basement 'apartment' in his house was expressly to pay for the property taxes. Another boosted the rent every time he got re-assessed. Do I resent this? No. Though I have no kids, I do not resent paying taxes for education. Some things have to be done as a community, and education is one of them.
However I *do* resent having been viewed as a non-contributor by those who know nothing of the reality of renting.
Sherry29, out here in the real world, rents DO proportionally follow taxes, fuel costs & etcetera. Rentals are businesses, some are just better than others. The places that tend to sit empty around here (I am thinking of one structurally unsound building that is always advertised for example), are empty because they are not priced to equal the product. Also, nothing against the military, but many landlords will tell the people placing applications that they would rather have military (guaranteed payment) tenants & would prefer to wait for them.
Renting in Fairbanks is not for the weak-hearted. We hope to stay at our current lovely place (that we were lucky to find) until we are ready to purchase or build a home.
So, if property taxes were reduced, how many landlords do you suppose would lower rents?
Alaska had the highest average beginning salary in 2002-03, at $37,401.
Teachers in Alaska have a world-class benefit package, excellent retirement, and can retire when their 55. Again, UNHEARD OF in the private sector.
Don’t give me the “shuck and jive” act.
Meanwhile, our students’ drop out rates continue to rise. Our standardized testing scores continue to fall.
Comparative value indeed.
=) Well Ak Curmudge, of course now that they are up there, I doubt they will ever come down. I wish!
We should give all teachers a raise by 20% - and a 5% increase every year to keep up with inflation. On their end, they must increase the graduation rates by 100% percent
Period.
AK Curmudgeon: They don't come down, of course. It dosn't work that way.
The diametric opposite is of course true Hybrid: private school teachers generally make significantly *more* money and benefits than public school ones. You're just plain wrong about that. And *of course* AK ranks high (comparatively) in starting pay!! AK is expensive to live in! $37,000 a year isn't going to make anyone rich in this state! And with what they have to deal with, who would want to do their job, and get starvation wages?? Would you? Even as it is many have to get summer jobs as well just to support their families. And so many people who speak of the "private sector" like it's some kind of god or idol, purposely fail to point out its negative aspects along with its positives. That is dishonest.
AA - Fantastic!!! Every single one of my 1st grade students will graduate from 1st grade this year. Where's my raise???
Hybrid - You should check some more recent statistics. As of 2005-2006, Alaska ranks # 11 in average teacher salary. I would also like to know what this "world-class" benefits package includes. I get medical and dental, which I pay my portion of like most private sector people do. We also have a pension, that I also pay into, that may or may not be there when it comes time to retire. Thats it. Sounds "world-class" to me.
"Even as it many have to get summer jobs as well just to support their famalies"
Are you kidding? Teachers work 180 days (1440 hours) a year. We are supposed to feel sorry for teachers to "have to get summer jobs". Maybe some teachers will even work 2080 hours per year...which is the base number of hours that professional people work (most of us work many more hours).
"The diametric opposite is of course true Hybrid: private school teachers generally make significantly *more* money and benefits than public school ones. " - Fsjec6.
Prove it. I'm sensing a lack of economic knowledge. "Private" implies that they are either for profit or they are funded by a church. In either instances, in ALASKA, they ain't going to have much money to support "World Class health benefits/retirement plans/etc like the STATE does."
You have a UAF callsign. Join us in the real world for a sec.
I wasn't talking about private school teaching, per se. I was talking about everyone else, scraping to get by out their sans the gov't. Teachers pretend like they have it much harder than everyone else. At the same time, they effectively have 4 MONTHS OFF, during the course of the year. Then they have the BALLS to complain about not getting paid enough. Well I got news for you: I work 12 MONTHS. I'm productive. Arguably, teachers, especially in Alaska are failing to educate our children properly. Failing grades. Increased drop out rates. If that was a private corporation, you'd have been FIRED.
Re: Private v. Public Employment
Generally: people not suckling on the gov't's teet know EXACTLY what I'm talking about.
You tell the teachers they have so many breaks and the best schedule out there and that we shouldn't complain of it. I teach high school, not in Fairbanks at the moment. As per my contract I am supposed to be at work from 8:15 in the morning until 4:45 in the afternoon. During that time I am supposed to have a conference period which last 45 mins and a 30 min (duty free) lunch according to federal employment standards(I haven't gotten to eat lunch for 3 weeks now). My day actually starts at 7am because I need to get my classroom ready for the day and I tutor students. Rarely do I leave before 6pm because of federal paperwork and again tutoring students who are unable (or unwilling) to get to school early for the extra help that they need. I spend my weekends planning lessons for the next week. I have children of my own that I literally have to schedule into my day to get to see, just because I am home doesn't mean my work is done. I then have to grade and evaluate my students which currently number around 150. So, on average I am reading and evaluating 150 assignments most nights. This does not include research papers, projects, etc. I don't get to bed before midnight and I have to be up around 5am just to get the day organized. As for those numerous "breaks" through out the year, I spend those usually grading major projects or research papers which I specifically schedule before those breaks just to have time to grade so I can get my 3-4 hours of sleep a night. I am not "off" during the summer. My summers are filled with professional development so I can keep my certification, not to mention the various district meetings for planning for the year to come. This semester alone I have spent well over $1000 dollars for supplies not provided by the district and in many cases I am providing the basics of paper and pen for my students because otherwise they would not have the supplies necessary to do the course work.
It has been said that Alaska has one of the highest average teacher salaries. This is true, but look at the profession as a whole, teachers who teach for 10 years get hardly anything above the salary they were hired at. At the same time other professions, with an equal amount of education, their salaries nearly double in that same amount of time. Teachers do not come into this profession to make money, we come into this profession mostly because we want to make a difference; but we need to live and take care of our own families as well. On many teaching salaries that is almost impossible because of the money we spend on our students rather than out families, a sacrifice which is unfortunately a necessity if we wish to be even mediocre teachers, let alone phenomenal ones. Because of this many teachers are leaving the profession in droves. If you want quality education, you must have quality teachers and you will not keep them until U.S. society values education more.
Why should I continue to fund raises for public school teachers through my property taxes when the students are not being taught? A case in point: I personally know a kid in 3rd grade who attends a public school. This kid does not know how to read anywhere close to grade level. Yet, the teacher cannot take time away from the other 34 kids in the class to give one-on-one help to this kid. Why should teachers get pay raises for failing to do his or her job (i.e. to TEACH reading, writing, science and mathmatics)? In the real world, an employee who does not perform up to par is canned.
As an aside, my kids are in private school where they are years ahead of their respective grade levels and the teachers are not unionized. Mmmmmmm. . . . no union, better education? Interesting, very interesting.
snowsgirl07
You sound the more of the exception than the rule. When I drop kids off at elementary school at 8:15, teachers are still showing up. Kids grade their own homework (which of course is an interesting practice I am sure....amazing how well kids to on their homework versus tests).
Many teachers want to be considered as "professionals" when it comes to the amount of the salary but they want to be considered as wage earners when it comes to compensation for hours worked. Sorry it doesn't work that way.
Sounds like you really care about your children's education.
Mmmmmmmmmmm....attentive parenting, better education? Interesting, very interesting.
I would love to know where this 3rd grader goes to school where there are 35 children in a class. Must not be in Fairbanks. Even if that were true, you are proving an excellent point. You want to blame the teacher for that failure in a class that big? Lets see, kids in Fairbanks attend school for 7 hours. 1 hour is for lunch and recess and another 30 minutes for gym/music/or library. That leaves 5 1/2 hours for teaching or 330 minutes. Even if there were only 33 students, instead of the 35 you claim, that leaves exactly 10 minutes of "one-on-one" time for each student. I'm curious, could you teach a child to read, write, and do math in 10 minutes a day???? Somehow, I doubt that the teacher won't take time out for "one-on-one" with that student. It's just that there is literaly no time for it. If parents are expecting their child's teacher to spend all day with their child in one-on-one time, they need to home school.
As a matter of fact this particular school is in FNSBSD.
h2os- It is hard to give one-on-one help if one has 33 other students. That said, I agree that the teacher unions are a major problem.
The kid in 3rd grade may just need to discover books that are enjoyable to read (Harry Potter is often good for this). Heck, when I was in 3rd grade my reading level was at the 1st grade level. By 5th grade, after discovering fantasy and science fiction, I had a 12th grade reading level. In 5th grade I was actually sent to the principal's office for reading Robert Eagles' translation of the Iliad because it was too violent.
This brings up another problem of public education, the culture wars. With vouchers we would have increased efficiency and the elimination of the culture wars in terms of education as we would no longer be able to force our beliefs on other peoples children.
"Join us in the real world for a sec." Oh, not this worn-out crap again.... OK, here goes: I worked in construction for years, spent 6 in the military, and have worked my way through my MS and PhD in a physical science; usually more than one of these at the same time. You have zero to teach me about the 'real world'.
I'm not gonna bother replying to the rest of this post . . . its just what I mean by "venting bitterness". With the amount of venom and misguided jealousy I see here, it's a wonder anybody *wants* to teach. And snowsgirl07 is right; the teachers *I* know are not in it for the pay, and certainly not for the invective they get. If it's such a 'cushy' job, tell me, why isn't everyone stampeding to be a teacher?
I do not see myself as the exception. I see more teachers who take extra time and money everyday to benefit their students. Hardly any teacher I work with is able to get a regular lunch because we spend time in parent conferences, monitoring students in the halls and cafeteria, not to mention Special Education meetings, etc. Most are there late many days to tutor. We all spend small fortunes just to have the basics necessary to do our job. And almost everyone of us is run down due to a lack of sleep from the work we take home. Do we have students grade sometimes, yes we do. But considering that in a class that lasts a round 50 minutes most students will complete at least 3 different tasks or assignments, we still take home the majority of the grading.
Next year I will not be arriving t my job quite as early as I do this year, primarily because my oldest child will be entering kindergarten and I will be dropping her off for her school day. A task most teachers perform since the vast majority of us are also parents, or even grandparents.
Big Mike in regards to your comment about wanting to be considered professions for salary, but want compensation for hours worked, you are incorrect. Yes I want to be considered a professional in regards to my salary. As a professional, however, should I be employed in the "private" sector, I would not be expected to spend 10% of my salary to be able to perform the basic functions of my job. Yet as a teacher I routinely do that, because it is necessary (The federal tax break for teachers by the way is only $250 a year, last year I had receipts for items necessary to my job that totaled $8000 over the course of the year and that does not include the money I paid for my professional development or license renewal) . Now one could argue that a CEO or manager is expected to expend money to present a certain appearance etc. It is the nature of their profession. However these professional salaries are more than twice what I make as a teacher. I could double my income by becoming a store manager at McDonald's and frankly work fewer hours. And that is the reason that most teachers are leaving the profession. I stay because I want to make a difference, but honestly it becomes harder and harder each year to justify that esoteric mentality when my own children have to do without my time or the extra income I could be making in a different profession.
guppie 9: Yes, I do care about my kids' education. That is why I gave up the 5000 square foot house, new BMW and 100 inch flat panel TV with 8000 channels in every room to pay for private school, where my kids actually learn how to read, write, comprehend, calculate and reason. Nothing pleased me more than seeing my 8 year old's reading comprehension at 7.8 grade level in standardized testing. But then I had to wonder, is she really that smart or was the test really that dumb.
Now I will admit $8000 was a little high for the year (our copy center was under funded and we had no paper to work with after only 9 weeks of school) So about $4000 was for printing last year. But still I my average spending for classroom supplies is around $4000 every year.
fsjec6 - You failed to refute any of my points or back up ANY of your earlier assertions. I take it you conceed those points.
You ADMIT that you've been in the military (funded by gov't) and that you've spent most of your time as a career college student (again, not the real world). Your work history adds nothing to the arguement your proposing, other than it just emphasizes to me that you just don't know what your talking about.
You obviously have no economic background. Maybe you should stick to things you know. Like physical science.
This isn't about "misguided jealousy" although, its easy for the simple minded to characterize it like that. It's about "comparable worth." (I.e. what value are you getting from these people compared to the work they do). Here, we have a classic case of diminishing returns....(par for the course in gov't). Rising drop out rates and diminishing test scores must be taken into account when you have these people DEMANDING a raise. Especially, when my tax dollars are footing the bill.
In the private sector, this would never of happened. The first sign of diminished returns (i.e. diminished profit margin), would spurn a change in course. Gov't, on the other hand, does not do this.
So I'm curious, do you really think teachers are worse today than they were, say, 50 years ago? Or has society, parenting, the world, etc. changed so much that the children teachers get in class are already at a disadvantage. Do you really think teachers go to work each day thinking of ways that they can screw up all the kids? Do you really think that we are all lazy good for nothings just looking for some handout from the government?
I would submit that if you believe that, than you don't know jack about myself or my co-workers. I can't speak for other schools, but I know that the teachers I work with are some of the finest and most caring individuals I have ever met. I would be proud for my children to be in any of their classrooms.
It is also very disingenuous to compare teaching to other professions. We are not building a house. We are not selling stock. You can't judge teachers the same way. There are just too many factors (I know I and others have said this many times.)
I know...let me put it into perspective. Lets say you have a job...any job. I am going to base your salary on what the weather is tomorrow. The weather has nothing to do with your job and you certainly have no control over the weather, but, nevertheless, I am going to determine your pay based upon how nice the weather is. Does that sound fair to you? That is what merit pay is like. You want to determine my salary and competency based upon student performance on a few standardized tests. (Which, by the way, most teachers hate as much as the students do.) Unfortunately, just like the weather, I can't control the multitude of factors that determine if a student is going to succeed or not.
There have been numerous studies that show that students who eat a healthy breakfast and get adequate rest perform better on tests. So, some mom decides to sleep late and not give junior his oatmeal after he stayed up all night playing video games. He bombs the test and I get a pay cut??? Yeah, merit pay for teachers is REAL fair.
I have a business with six printers and a copier and we prepare 100's of reports a year and I don't think I spend $4000 a year. You are getting hosed on copy charges.
There is no money in teaching. Most teachers work more than what they get paid for.
Guppie9
It frightens me that you teach children. You are just plain crazy.
"That is what merit pay is like. You want to determine my salary and competency based upon student performance on a few standardized tests. (Which, by the way, most teachers hate as much as the students do.) Unfortunately, just like the weather, I can't control the multitude of factors that determine if a student is going to succeed or not." - guppie9
No, but you control the most important one. THE CIRRICULUM. Teachers appear to be the only ones who don't want to be held responsible for THE RESULTS. Everyone else in society is held to that standard. Why can't teachers? The answer is: THEY CAN. They just don't want to, because THE RESULTS, lately (and especially in Alaska), reflect POORLY on them.
Please excuse BigMike. Guppie9 is just responding to distorted incentives. As a unionized teacher who teaches a nonessential subject (I am assuming), she is completely rational (but unethical) to claim to be a victim while using pubic policy to hold children as hostages for a pay increase she does not deserve (based on her opportunity cost). Once again, if teachers really cared about their students they would favor Pell Grants for high schoolers.