Controversy escalates over ‘Day of Silence'
Published Tuesday, April 15, 2008
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Stumble It!Students from at least one Fairbanks high school, West Valley, will be participating in the “Day of Silence,” an event sponsored by the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network. The national event is scheduled for April 25.
The organization’s Web site states the purpose of Day of Silence “is to bring attention to anti-LGBT name-calling, bullying and harassment and effective responses.”
But an e-newsletter sent out by The Alaska Family Council states the organization has received concerns that Day of Silence is portraying people who oppose homosexuality as “hate-filled bigots.” The Family Council recommends keeping children out of schools that day if the school has confirmed they are allowing a Day of Silence to happen on their campus.
The Family Council also advocates an alternative event, “Day of Truth” sponsored by the Alliance Defense Fund. According to the Day of Truth Web site, the event “was established to counter the promotion of the homosexual agenda and express an opposing viewpoint from a Christian perspective.” Day of Truth is scheduled for April 28.
Wayne Gerke, assistant superintendent of secondary schools at the Fairbanks North Star Borough School District, said he has received more inquires than complaints about the Day of Silence. The event is not an official school activity and is not sponsored by the school district but is a way for students to express their freedom of speech. Gerke said he believes the purpose of Day of Silence is not to promote homosexuality but rather to stand against bullying.
Gerke said school staff do not participate and students do not hand out any fliers or literature. The event does not disrupt the school environment, though Gerke admits some people might see being silent in class as a disruption.
Gerke was unable to say if a Day of Truth would be allowed in the schools because he is unfamiliar with the event, but in general he says events that allow students to exercise their freedom of speech without disrupting the school environment will be tolerated.
Community Discussion
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Forgive me for upset apple carts, however I found a PBS presentation of Walt Whitman this past evening rather bold (more than I wanted to see) for myself in that it presumed to show graphic male to male kissing without any warning whatsoever.
Hey kids, family viewing on PBS and a great American poet, pants down and all!
Supposedly alleviated by intoning Whitman's musings in a very alluring natural scene, it nonetheless made me change the channel.
One more "in your face" to those who do not share the homosexual agenda and are not likely to be "converted" by such tactics.
I'm not a bigot, nor do I wish to change you, yet I find tactics such as this both desperate and abhorrent.
In the laws of nature you remain abberant, I didn't write the laws and don't necessarily think you're going to hell any faster than the rest of us, but your agenda does not necessarily include nor breed sympathy from all.
Men kissing in a Whitman documentary? What's next, women kissing in a Gertrude Stein documentary? What is this world coming to?
funny babylon......
although...personally - I prefer, and would rather watch, the women kissing :)
enjoy the sun all - time to hope for breakup once again
Let's all just run butt naked in the schools and streets! Let it all hang out!
Sodom and Gamorrah was destroyed because of the people going against God's Natural Laws. Do what ever flips your trigger but there is no escaping the End Judgement. "THINK ABOUT IT"
If we woulda had a day of silence for break-up about three weeks ago maybe we coulda avoided this return to winter.
All you hunters today is the day to get your bear bait out!
Where do think our Modern Day Word "SODOMY" comes from? "YOU DECIDE"
You better not run around letting it all hang out...or God will turn you to a pillar of salt....I'm sure of it!!!!
After all, where do you think salt came from....
"YOU DECIDE"
AS we slowly watch our country fall apart because of our own immorality there are still many ignorant people.
I guarantee you, when you are at your weakest lying on your deathbed alone, you will pray to God.
Just remember, the unforgivable sin - denying Him!
I can't understand those that would rather believe they are related to the monkeys. That really shows ignorance!
God Bless!
Perhaps it was God's intention to have us slowly evolve from the ape to what we are. So maybe everyone is right.
God Bless ALL!
I can't believe there is such an uproar about this. They did the same thing when I was in high school, and there was no impact on the normal school day. The only difference was that there were maybe 15-20 kids that weren't talking, and they were mostly the kids that didn't talk much anyway.
no sherry, sigh... it isn't ignorance, it is an ego as large as satans.
Why have I never seen a day of silence for the bullying of the unpopular students such as goths or nerds or whatever terms they use today. This day is specific to gays and lebians there is a lot more bullying to other groups then to them.
Bikebuilder- got the stand set, time to bait now! Its just a standard thing if you know WHERE I mean ;)
I'm perplexed.
"Sodom and Gamorrah was destroyed because of the people going against God's Natural Laws."
I understand what sodomy is but what about gamorrahphy?
Is it something to do with bears and breakup?
oh please, please don't let this post get as boring as the other ones.
who are you people anyway? college professors? working mothers? the old guys who hang out at fred meyer's deli? i have to admit that as i go through town, i try to put faces to these names i see. the computer and internet have made everyone so impersonal. i won't judge you til i see you. kidding. ;)
I think this is great, and the West Valley kids should feel proud that they're participating despite all the bigots complaining about it. LGBT kids have it rough; there's a lot of hatred toward gays in the schools and the community. I don't know why anyone would think someone can "choose" to be gay. Why the hell would you choose to be hated by such a large proportion of your community?
I can only comment on my own experiences. 1993 Joy Elementry Fairbanks Alaska -For one entire week when my son was in Kindergarden, he insisted on wearing the same shirt for over an entire week. After I took it away from him, he burst into tears because it was the only green shirt he owned and he didn't want to be pinched any more... it was then that I realized that I forgot to tell his teacher that we don't celebrate St. Patricks Day.
Long story short, a strong worded letter to the principal lead to a confrontation with his teacher who stood infront of me with her arms crossed and she announced very plainly that she did not approve of my religion.
So, my bottom line, State sponsored, public school should be for education of facts, reading, mathematics, science, and history. Leave the religion, (I class "gay" "straight" or "whatever" under that religion umbrella), at home!
-RK
I would be more comfortable with a DOS that represented all bigotry, and stood up for all who suffer oppression rather than focusing on sexuality explicitly - for a fuller explanation of my views, see the DOS letter to the editor (I'm too lazy to repeat it here).
However, I will say this to Sherry and Flatlander: I'd love to see you both come out of the Old Testament and into the New. With Jesus came a new Covenant, and I'm pretty sure the love He teaches doesn't include beating people about the head and shoulders with the Bible. And then, when you follow such a beating with "God Bless" (even if it were sincere) nothing is accomplished other than a cementing of a less-than-loving-feeling toward you, and by proxy, God.
I see the rabid fundies came out while I slept...
KSFLATLANDER -- Those cities were destroyed by volcanic eruptions, I believe. Maybe you've heard of these thing called vocanoes? In man's infancy, they were believed to be some kind of wrath of God. In the modern, grown up version of man, we understand that volcanoes are naturally occurring and do not REQUIRE the existence of a God to operate. Oh, wait, you'd have to put down your bible to understand that naturally occurring disasters occur - NATURALLY.
sherry29 -- I can guarantee you that you'll be FAR more likely to pray to Allah on your deathbed than I will EVER be to pray to your invisible friend.
polarmark -- Our science is based upon centuries of painstaking, careful effort through the scientific method. Thousands of great human minds contributed to the body of knowledge that we have amassed. Your "proof" is contained in a few pages at the beginning of what could possibly be one of the oldest fairytales ever written. So, who, exactly has a giant ego? The man who stands on a few pages of an ancient text, or the society that has painstakingly examined millions of facts and interpretted them through the use of our intellect?
Oh, and, by the way, satan doesn't exist bucko. Its all made up. If I'm lying, my GOD strike me dead right here, right now...
... Umm... Still Alive...
All - I've got some bad news for ya. God is manmade. That ridiculous book that you read was written by pre-historic men with IQs around that of our current grade schoolers. THERE IS NO GOD. Therefore, no "End Judgment" (I mean, how childish can you be to need the ultimate blackmail in order to keep you good little children?)
... Ummm... Still Alive... Come on God, STRIKE ME!!!
Now, can you stop using your invisible friend to justify your hatred, violence, and murder of those that are different than you?
Thanks, the rest of humanity would appreciate it.
[And, I'm STILL ALIVE]
gamorrahphy -- Good one, I have not laughed like that in while...
Dana --
I hate to break the news to you, but your beloved New Testament also calls for death to homosexuals -- Romans 1:24-32. So, hopefully we can now agree to throw that one out too?
Thanks.
And, by the way, I'm still alive...
Well said newsreader. There is too much hate spread with use of the Bible. Just look at the comments above to find proof of this. I am straight and support people's freedom of choice.
Newsreader,
I think prehistoric man was actually smarter than your average second grader educated in a public school.
This protest, as I understand it, is against bullying. The bullies, from the looks of the postings here, are in the pulpit.
(Get it? Bully Pulpit?)
OK, not one of my best.
then I guess I am a hate-filled bigot. If my baby was in school, I'd keep her home that day. DISGUSTING! I can see colleges doing this sort of thing, but it does not belong where there are minors!
honeyhi --
Can you please explain to me what is disgusting about contemplating the FACT that a minority group in our society is daily plagued with ridicule, violence, and murder?
I'm trying to understand here...
[By the way - this takes place in high school. So, I agree with you, your "baby" shouldn't be there. Now, your teenager, that's another story.]
Mark Twain once said that it's better to keep silent and have people think you're an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. I think it's sad that a lot of people out there who obviously are egotistical/have no life/bored/etc. will actually try and scream/preach/lecture/pass judgment on the lives of others. Seriously, people, when a group of -high school- kids simply wanting to be silent for a cause makes some adults start foaming at the mouth and yelling OMG THEY MUST BE IMMORAL, CONVERT OR DIE, CONVERT OR DIE! then it's time to get another life. By the way, who exactly gave you guys the authority to judge the rest of us?
If you're using the Bible as your literal and moral code to judge others by picking and choosing what passages in it you want as "righteous proof" against the masses, then I'm assuming you agree with these Bible verses as well:
Exodus 21:7 says it's okay for fathers to sell their daughters.
Deuteronomy 14:8 says we're not allowed to eat pork
Deuteronomy 21:18 allows you to take your stubborn and rebellious kid to the city leaders and have him stoned to death
So please, don't even get on the soap box with your Bible proclaiming what's right and what's wrong, just be happy with figuring out your own life.
Do kids even know what a gay and lesbian is? Do they really care? Or is it just adults that tell them what they think it is?
Next thing you know we will have videos to educate them. Hand out the condoms! and anything else needed!
Check:
Dana and i_play_outside
RK, I can relate to that kind of experience. Could tell you some of my own...
Joe Murphy...that was great!
Has anyone bothered to ask what their kids think about all this? This is happening in a high school, so they should be at an age capable of objective thought. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of them could care less and won't notice that "day of silence" anyway. Those that do care and support it, would do so regardless of what any of you say or do. So busy worrying about such inconsequential crap.
I'll also throw this log on the fire for those of you worried about what this day of silence might do: Maybe if you'd spent a little more time with your kids, reinforcing values, teaching them right and wrong instead of buying them another xbox and a cell phone and expecting a school to teach them everything, you wouldn't have to worry so much. I trust my kid to make the right choices for himself because I know I helped put a good head on his shoulders.
But we can't have a day of silence for the nation right? For all our servemen and women putting their lives on the line everyday. We can't pledge to the nation but we can gays and lesbians.
The country is moving alright.. straight to Clinton and Obama! Good job!
Oh yeah, and _Curmudgeon
Moose...
We can pledge to the nation all you want. We do it all the time. We don't, however, pledge to God.
You do realize the the "under God" was added in the fifties as a result of McCarthyism, right? You do realize that the pledge of allegiance was never meant to say anything about God, right?
BTW - we do have a day for our service men and woman, I believe it is called Memorial Day? Oh yeah, and Veteran's Day? And the 4th of July? And... (I'm sure there's probably a few more as well).
Isn't it great how none of us have anything worthwhile to do, and can therefore devote our days to this pointless debate where no one ever convinces anyone to switch sides?
I mean, what kind of loser would ever bother to post messages here in the first place?
(Oh, uh, wait a minute...)
Curmudgeon ---
That's life in modern times "AS we slowly watch our country fall apart." Isn't it grand?
Here's a quote I think (somewhat) applies here...
"The Earth is degenerating these days. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer mind their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching."
- Assyrian Stone Tablet, c.2800BC
Why don't they have the day of silence for all teenage children who have at once felt picked on by another student or of society. The picking on people who are diffrent from you for any reason is not a good choice.
newsreader - While I normally agree with you on many things, and appreciate your intelligence and humor, I really wish that you would stop beating me about the head and shoulders with my beliefs. You don't like it. I get it. It's more effective to correct those that abuse the religion, not those that try to use their beliefs to better their world. Honestly. I never said that God would strike you, or anyone else, dead, over anything, but you insist on taking the worst of the population and attributing their dangerous misinterpretations onto the rest of us. This, my friend, is blind hatred and ridicule for blind hatred's sake.
I chose the dichotomy between the Old and New Testaments to appeal to the Bible-thumping on this thread for a reason - it's what they "get". Beyond that, the lesson of the New Testament was Jesus' love for all - that is the lesson. I obviously have refused to align myself with those that use my religion as a position for hatred. The Bible is the word of God, filtered through man, edited by man and interpreted by man - there's bound to be something lost in the translation. As I have said before, many edicts in the Bible were put there for health reasons, and the worst "death" imaginable was afterlife with no God. I'm not going to debate the passage with you. I don't agree with killing folk because they sin (not only would Jesus disagree, but I'd have been dead a long time ago)). I chalk it up as being much less important that the overall teaching of love and respect for others.
You use the beliefs of others (in this area) as a way to ridicule them, which I see as very similar to their use of their religion to hate - I would classify neither as right. I'll suggest the same thing to you that I suggested to them: beating people with your view (or theirs) is not going to change anyone's mind. All it's going to do is make the other side disregard the one that is being professed.
I know this isn't going to change your opinion or your presentation; I think you've made that clear. But, behaving in a manner that is hateful or bigoted is WRONG no matter what excuse is used and no matter what theoretical standpoint it comes from.
Dana - See, the problem with the phrase "It's more effective to correct those that abuse the religion, not those that try to use their beliefs to better their world." is everyone has their own view of "bettering the world". The KKK seem to think killing Jewish people is bettering the world per the Bible because they supposedly murdered Jesus (of course, let's forget for a moment the obvious flaw that Jesus -was- Jewish himself). The Inquisition was about "good" religious people torturing and killing "bad" (aka anyone who had a different religious opinion) people in order to better the world per the guidance of passages in the Bible. Hitler himself took passages from the Bible, twisted them to his own interpretation, and used that to justify murdering six million people.
Religion, when used together with interpretations of the Bible, can be the most powerful and dangerous thing people can have in this society. Never has more hatred, bigotry, and murder come from people using those two things to "better the world".
Dana --
If you'd like to think of me as an "anti-hatred anti-murder-inciting" bigot, then go ahead. That's all that I've advocated - getting rid of a belief system that continues to promote the dogma of "kill gays".
By the way, my first post was not aimed at you in any way. My second, where I pointed out to you that the New Testament isn't all that much better, was.
I was tying to show you that your beliefs, albeit very moderate, still continue to show hypocrisy.
If the bible is the Word of God, then it is infallible. If it is instead, filtered, edited, and interpreted through man, then it is not infallible. Thus we have a contradiction.
If the bible is the Word of God, then you must take all of it as truth, because it is the Word of God. If you do not, but instead filter it (as you do), then you are hypocritical again - you are taking your own version of the Word of God, not the ACTUAL word of God. Once again, showing a contradiction in your belief system.
I do what I do on here not for "blind hatred's sake", but to show the non-believers, the partial believers, and the "on the fencers" the hypocrisy, bigotry, and downright EVIL that CAN result from following this belief system.
I do not expect to change anyone's mind who is firmly "on the other side", they are already beyond my help. However, if I can show others how ridiculous these beliefs are, then I am doing good for society and our community.
Your saying that people should "come out of the Old Testament and into the New" makes the judgment that the old testament is bad and the new testament is better. My judgment says that both are bad and should be rejected. I say this because BOTH advocate death to gays, something that is NOT acceptable, is not LOVING, and in no way should be associated with "Jesus", yet it is - it is in the WORD OF GOD.
To me, that makes God bad.
newsreader- how are your views towards religion any different than my views toward gays? You are spewing hatred and disgust. You are promoting negativism and hatred and this makes you a hypocrite. Your people don't want to be "converted" by the religious fanatics and their agenda, but what makes you think that the religious folks want to hear your crap either? What do you care what I believe?
Instead of taking the opportunity to say "Regardless of who you are or how you are different than us, we love you and believe that you should not be subjected to bullying" this small group of "morality champions" has decided to make it about something it is NOT. The Day of Silence is NOT about making people gay, or endorsing "the" homosexual lifestyle or "the" homosexual agenda, it is about recognizing that bullying someone is wrong. It's not about forcing a student who hates The Gays to become best friends with a gay kid. It's not about forcing students to accept that homosexuality is a "valid lifestyle" (whatever that means). It's about saying if you don't like it FINE just don't abuse someone else because you don't like something about them...that happens to sound a lot like JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED to me now that I think about it...
As for the always-ridiculous "why aren't they having this benefit/action for ________ group" argument: Who's stopping you? Go for it. Just because there aren't organized "Don't Bully Your Local Goth" events doesn't mean there can't be - Day of Silence doesn't automatically and immediately preclude you from organizing your very own Day of Silence to combat _____________.
It makes me sad that this small group of people doesn't take this opportunity to build a bridge of understanding and instead twists it to make it fit THEIR agenda...which is to keep people a'feared'o turnin' queer.
This does not surprize me, schools today seem to be pre-occupied with social problems rather than with the three "R's". Go figure?
The test results, which were released yesterday, present a damning assessment of American students in their last year of mandatory schooling: In both subjects, their scores ranked close to last among the 21 nations that participated. And their showing was much worse than the marks that American elementary and middle school students have earned on similar international exams in the past two years.
I am so proud of today's youth for not falling for this crap organized religion forces upon us. I applaude your tenacity for standing up for HUMAN rights, for treating each other with kindness, and love. I am ashamed of those of you who belittle, hate and judge in the name of God. I do believe Christ died for me, I Pray every day to end the suffering that so many face. I do choose to believe there is a greater being who put me here and watches over us. I am so thankful my children were raised to respect all and judge no one. I cannot wait for judgement day. I have no fear, I harbor no hate in my soul. I will be in a loving place with my savior. On this Earth, I simply love.....who I love is not your concern or your business. If you would like to volunteer to pay my mortgage, my GVEA bill and pay to raise my children then I may decide to care what you think. Until then, stay out of my bedroom and I will stay out of yours. There are churches out there for those of you who wish to give praise without all the ignorance that goes along with organized religion. My only hope, and I may have to answer for it, is that those of us who do not judge, who know the only one whose opinion counts is God, will get to sit in on "YOUR" judgement day and witness you having to answer for the cruel, hateful, nasty lies you tell and hold in your heart in the name of such a loving, forgiving God. I believe he will forgive you. Thats his way.
wthaidiak says - "newsreader- how are your views towards religion any different than my views toward gays?"
Really simple explanation there and a REALLY big difference.
You hate someone for who they are (how God made them?).
I "hate" someone for choosing to endorse and perpetuate institutionalized hatred, bigotry, violence, and murder.
When was the last time you heard of a Christian being killed in a hate crime by an Atheist? (NEVER)
Now, when was last time you heard of a gay being killed by a Christian in a hate crime? (Often)
I knew by mentioning Sodom and Gomorrah, that it would bring out the Boo-Birds. It's always been my observation that those who scream the loudest are the very ones that are most afraid. So this is directed towards newsreader and shadowmatrix. Cool name, shadowmatrix, but it still don't make you cool or right. It seems to me that you two know quite alot about the bible, since you're the ones quoting so much of it. I wish I could be as cool as newsreader saying things like, "My" God strike me dead, and I'm not dead yet!! Yes you said my God. I know you meant may God.
I'm not a bible thumper or any of the things you think I am. I have however studied the bible with translation tools. You just can't get the true meaning of the KJV without using translation.
So, have your fun. You've not insulted me or made me angry in any way. By the way, God winks at stupidity. Later
KSFLATLANDER...you and your winky god are not funny. YouMustBConfused
newsreader- I do not hate anyone, nor do I condone it. I do not have any verifiable facts that a true christian has killed a gay person in the name of christianity. As a "newsreader" I am sure that you will provide that data. I can provide verifiable facts that christians have been killed because of their beliefs. I realize that is not exactly what you said, but the point is still the same.
You admit to hating a certain group of people, therefore we cannot debate.
Interesting to note that the one who is supposedly NOT a bible thumper was the first one to use references to the scripture in this thread - references that imply that gays should be doomed to death. [Which shows us EXACTLY why we need this day of silence - your beliefs are causing this problem.]
I quote the bible to show how incredibly fallible and asinine this supposed 'sacred word of God' really is. Besides, it seems to be the only thing that some people believe, i.e. speaking in your language.
And, you are right, I am scared. Scared of the religious fundamentalist movement that I see in America today. Scared of my president stating that Atheist shouldn't be considered citizens. Scared that the fundamentalists have twisted our pledge of allegiance to advocate their beliefs.
To tie it back in with this article, I'm scared that my daughter will turn out to be gay and your children will ridicule, beat, or murder her. Or, you could even say that I'm scared that she will be straight but will be influenced and swayed by the little bigots that fundamentalist Christianity creates on a daily basis.
Gays don't have a monoply on being doomed to death, we all fall in that catigory. All of us will die, that's a fact. The secound death is the one I'm most concerned with.
wthaidiak says "You admit to hating a certain group of people, therefore we cannot debate."
Don't you hate murderers? How about rapists? How about child molesters? How about individuals who promote hatred, racial violence, and homophobia?
Now, how about groups of people who institutionalize the promotion of hatred, violence, and murder?
Come on, you hated the Nazis, right? [Who, by the way, said that God was on their side and regularly used the scriptures to back up their agenda.]
You must hate the Taliban, at least? [Who, by the way, are probably the worst band of religious fundamentalist alive today.]
I LOVE FREEDOM AND THE AMERICAN IDEALS OF EQUALITY, LIBERTY, AND JUSTICE. I HATE THOSE WHO (I FEEL) OPPOSE FREEDOM AND THESE AMERICAN IDEALS.
And, I will never apologize for doing so, nor feel silly for these beliefs.
I have read everyones comments and no one has offered anything else concrete to work off of. So here is my input and we shall see what will come of it.
I am not for gay rights nor am I against their right to exist but the matter at hand is "does one single group of people get to tell the rest of the society what to do". I say No, so lets do what the Alaskan Family Council said but boycott the school for three days. Keep your kids home for three days and if you can get enough students to boycott you will shutdown that school for three days and have a voice your stand against this movement.
Can you elaborate on how a voluntary activity organized by students is "one single group of people telling the rest of society what to do"? Here's a "concrete" idea. If you have a problem with the Day of Silence, don't participate. If you have a problem with your child, a student, participating in the Day of Silence, forbid them from doing so. If you wish to participate in the Day of Silence, do so.
The students do nothing in a school with out the approval of the administration. Therefore the administration has given their blessing on this activity, as far as a single group in society goes a school is a reflection of our society. The good and the bad. This is how many of the decision the govenment has made all stem from "he who speaks the loudest wins" Sort of like these blogs.
With that said, I still contend if the students and or parents have a problem with the "DOS"; boycott the school and show your displeasure with the decision that was made and things will change. Voice your concern as the people are voicing there their support for "DOS". But make sure the protest is heard in a strong correct manner. Walk out in numbers.
Did I say anything about pledging to God? Who cares what he/she/it thinks?
Unless he/she/it is a gay or lesbian. and even then does it matter?
HEAVEN FORBID THAT KIDS STOP AND THINK A MINUTE ABOUT HOW THEIR INSENSITIVE REMARKS MAY HURT OTHER PEOPLE!! THEY'RE JUST KIDS, THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT DEVELOPING LIFE SKILLS OR COMPASSION FOR OTHER HUMAN BEINGS!
... sarcasm, but it hurts my brain to think like that for too long. Why would you keep your kid out of school because a few kids aren't going to be talking? Are you serious? Because a few kids object to either themselves or other students being called hurtful names? You're objecting to their objection? Does that mean you support kids being little stuck-up a$$holes to each other? Or even unintentionally? Do you let your kids call black people the n-word? As long as they don't "really" mean it?
pbrown, I guess the school administration must approve of smoking, drinking, and doing drugs, then. Because I'm sure that kids around Fairbanks are just like I was -- less than five years ago -- when I was in high school. Kids are going to do stuff with or without the approval of any school administration, and all the hellfire and damnation of a few parents can't stop them. Thank God for that.
newsreader - I happen to think very highly of you (whether that matters to you or not, I dunno). This is one of the reasons I have avoided discussing this topic with you. I think that you are very intolerant when it comes to this subject (remember pointing out to me how "blind" my patriotism is? Trying to return the favor I guess - and it is a favor in my view to point out when I am behaving irrationally).
What I was doing was was attempting to point out how similar the two extremes are to each other; extreme views from either side expressed in an extreme manner accomplish nothing. The word of God is infallible; the paper it's written on, the ink it's written with and the people reading it aren't. This is why I am not a Bible literalist - it's silly. I can still see the overall message that is presented and I happen to try to honor it in my life. I'm sorry that you see me as hypocritical here. I feel I'm being pretty damn true to myself and my faith, which doesn't come line-by-line from the Bible. Again, it's the message that is of interest to me. Love. Acceptance. Tolerance.
"However, if I can show others how ridiculous these beliefs are, then I am doing good for society and our community." "I "hate" someone for choosing to endorse and perpetuate institutionalized hatred, bigotry, violence, and murder." How does my faith in God endorse hatred, bigotry, violence and murder, when I have stated quite clearly that I accept none of this in the name of MY faith? How, when I attempt (note I say "attempt") to practice love, acceptance, and tolerance through this faith detract from my community? (I understand that all you say is not directed at me personally, but I use myself in here because I know many more Christians like ME than I do of the Christians that you seem to have known in your life. If I run across those folk, I choose not to associate with them because their views reflect poorly on me.)
Shadowmatrix - A gun in the wrong hands is dangerous. That doesn't make me hate all gun manuals, gun owners or guns and I'm not interested in talking the NRA out of believing in guns. I AM interested in punishing people that choose to use a gun against another person with malicious intent. I'm also okay with letting the gun-owners that don't hurt others to have their guns. Of course some people will twist their beliefs in ways that abuse others, sad but true - which is why we call THEM on it. But to classify ALL Christians as Bible-thumping, evolution-rejecting, homosexual-hating, bigotry-preaching ijits is a heck of a generalization. (Yes, these are my words, not yours. But you get the gist).
To the rest: Homosexuality, like heterosexuality, is biological (think eye-color?). Sexuality is a spectrum, with every human falling somewhere on that spectrum. Hating someone for it, denying them opportunities because of it is short-sighted and hateful, no matter what reasons you have behind it.
(Newsreader - Way off topic: did the president actually say that? When, where? I knew he wasn't the sharpest tool, but pfffft. Wow.)
pbrown: "The students do nothing in a school with out the approval of the administration. Therefore the administration has given their blessing on this activity..."
No, no, no, pbrown. This is a non-school-sponsored event. It is done neither with the administration's approval, nor in defiance of its disapproval, but in full harmony with the students' rights to free expression, which are protected under the U.S. Constitution. The First-Amendment rights of students do not disappear when they walk in the door, and they are always free to express themselves -- most certainly with silence -- without the approval of the administration, as long as their expression does not interfere with the educational environment.
Newsreader: What if I told you that I do believe in God (Goddess, Creator, Supreme Scientist, Whatever) and somehow "identify" (maybe wrong word, not sure) with Christ but I do not believe that "God" values life. Reverence for life is a human value linked directly to human fear of mortality. If then, God does not value life, is it not possible that the actions involved are moot and the people involved in deluded God-endorsed hatred have missed the point? I don't own a Bible, for no other reason than it's just not a priority. I do believe in God. Does my declaration of belief in my invisible friend make me one you would hate? Does my inability to see the writings of men umpteen hundreds of years ago as relevant make me a hypocrite? I think the measure of a "man" is what's in his heart, not his library. I also believe it is impossible to teach tolerance with a hateful heart. I truly hope you'll one day be able to separate the individual from the group and see how an individual's circumstance, culture, and maturation affect his/her choices. Your message of love (which is what tolerance in this issue is) is diffused by your hate for Christians. The one group that may need your message the most probably isn't listening.
For all the anti-religous types that are making the leap between a christian based religion begin the cause of death and harm to gays is totally off base.
It is because our country is christian based gays are allowed to live a normal life.
If it wasnt for the caring of our christian society the forces of other religious groups who are extremely fanatical would not only abuse, but totally kill all GAYS...
Feel lucky that the majority of christians are willing to except you in our society.
If for some reason our christian religious beliefs are destroyed how long do you believe the fanatics are going to tolerate your immorality... None fanatical muslims in Iran kill gays all the time and it isnt with a shot in the arm.
I say put um in uniform (or at the very least have a strict dress code) have no DOS or any other day for that matter. Set higher educational standards and hold them to it. More homework and less BS. Its SCHOOL. I was told when I was in school that my job was to go to school and learn. Kids will still have time to be kids and get together and smoke and joke. But school is school. Strap um to the chair (not literaly) and teach them.
And we wonder why despite our wealth, this nation lags far behind the rest of the industrialized world in education. Why companies look more and more to overseas to fill job vacancies. Cant get qualified applicants here at home!
Then again, I could be wrong.
Dana & Candikane --
I have very little problem with how either of you worship God. The fact that both of you don't quote scriptures (or don't own a bible) takes a HUGE load off. The only objection that I could possibly have to your personal beliefs is that in ending posts with "God Bless" and supporting Christianity in general, you are (very indirectly) giving support to these fundamentalist Christians who ARE teaching the hatred and bigotry. In doing so, you are perpetuating the institution. But, admittedly, that's a stretch.
My statements, unless directly specified as such, are not directed at you two. However, every time someone says they are a Christian, I have to assume they are a fundamentalist until they prove themselves otherwise. Look at ksflatlander - they claim they are not a "bible thumper" (their words) and yet spout religious hatred from the bible. Look at alaskaflower - today she posts about how horrible racism is, but the other day claimed that the bible is "the only "book of science" that has never been disproven or needed revision". When I pointed out that the bible calls for death to all except the devout God fearing, she has no response.
I will admit to calling Dana out a few times. And, I will probably continue to point out what I see as hypocrisy in her (or others). I do this for two reasons.
Firstly, because she is obviously very intelligent and enlightened and yet still holds her belief in God - I don't get this and would like to try to understand.
Secondly, to try to show her more examples of the evil that I see that result from the institution that her faith supports.
Dana --
"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
--George Herbert Walker Bush, Former U. S. President, 1988.
[You can find this quote in many places on the net. Please note how the "under God" that was inappropriately placed in our pledge of allegiance by McCarthyism is being used by the fundamentalists as a tool to oppress and degrade American citizens.]
bikebuilder - Just a note - "religion" and "morality" are not one in the same. One can have morality without religion, and vice versa.
It is here that I agree with (*gasp*) sdoownek about the importance of science - one day it will prove "gay" to be biological. Perhaps on that day we'll see others accept it as reality rather than choice.
Reader1 - I agree with you in this last post. Not sure today is that much different than yesterday in the adults wondering "what the heck...?" about the kids, but I agree that setting higher educational standards is much more important for the health and vitality of the country and the citizens.
Speaking (writing?) of educational standards, I have been ignoring my own to focus here... (What the heck?) Back to my studyin' stuffs. Good luck with figurin' this stuff out today.
"...that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
^^^
GOD
The God thing has always been an integral concept in regards to our government. Though many of the founders were not christian.
I think we need to fear both ends of the spectrum, far right as well as left. Each wants to control us and tell us how to live.
Reader1 --
My Creator was my mom (with a little bit of help from dad).
But, you are correct - both ends of the spectrum are bad.
Bikebuilder --
Nice use of negative relativism -- compare Christianity to Fundamentalist Muslim law. That'll make you look good. Nice ploy. Along those same lines, compared to Hitler, Osama is a saint! But, that doesn't mean I'm gonna back his beliefs either! *lol*
My comments on this article:
I think that this DOS is a sneaky way to divert attention to the pro-Homosexual agenda. While the idea itself may be well intentioned by its creators, it's a very poor avenue to be carried out in. Thank you to the Newsminor for bringing this to our attention.
I influence hundreds of teenagers every week.
I will be teaching them that homosexuality is wrong this week.
I will be encouraging them along with their parents to object to this DOS.
I will not stop spreading the Truth.
What will you be doing this week?
Well I thought it would be fun to stir the pot.
I just want to give Kuddo's to everyone that has replied to this. I had to go back to the top half way thru just to remember what the topic was...
Seems too many are more worried about spreading the word of you know who, and some others defending the right not to care about it, they forgot that it is thier children, and mine that have to go to school on this day....
My comment: if my child doesn't want to go to school on this particular day, then they can stay home.....
This week, I'll be being sickened by theTruth...
[while the minds of our youths are poisoned by he/she/it]
sdoownek: Crap. You had to go and make sense so I have to say that I agree with you. Although I probably won't just be sitting here, I'll probably be fervently googling, trying to figure out who this beautiful human is. ;)
theTruth: Teenagers aren't innately stupid. I'm glad you're teaching them tolerance by teaching them how to tolerate you. High-five!
Mick, sorry but thats not the answer either. Public schools are not for silent (or loud) protests. I dont care how good and wholesome the reason may be. Kids should be go to school to LEARN!! And no ones child should stay home because something like this is going on at school.
Newsreader, what if they had days of silence for Christ? UNACCEPTABLE!
Its a simple fix. Dont allow anything, that includes the Red Cross or blood drives or anything into the schools.
Assembly's were always a waste of time.
newsreader, I feel really sad for you. you hate without reason, you're mad at God for something you think he has done to you. You lash out at all people who proclaim to be christians, lumping them into a catigory of killers of mandkind. You believe everyone has to prove themselves to you. Wake up and smell the coffee. This world does not revolve around you. You must concider yourself to be very inteligent for there are only certain people you concider smart enough to talk to you. I never quoted any scripture and yet you know all about me. I don't go to church, I don't watch the televangilist, for indeed they do make me sick. You need to get out in the real world and quit watching so much Star Trek.
I agree with Reader1.
Geez! I don't understand this thread at all! I wish I understood what was going on inside other people's heads. Oh well, whatever...
All I know is that when I was 9 years old, I unexpectedly developed a strong crush on another boy in my class. I'd never heard the word sex at that age; I had no concept of it. As far as my interactions with my peers, it was all downhill from there. By junior high school I knew people my age wanted to kill me. I couldn't figure out why. The 8th Grade was the worst. The bullying, name calling, physical abuse, and social humiliation were unbearable. All the adults knew what was going on, and all turned a blind eye. I spent the next few years hating myself, praying to God every day to fix me somehow.
This of course never happened (either because there isn't anything wrong with me, or because God doesn't exist).
But, my point is: Every day in junior high and high school was a day of silence for me; not because of a protest but because people refused to speak up on my behalf against violence when I could not speak for myself. If your kid isn't the one being bullied, he or she is the bully (no matter what you want to think otherwise).
(PS: Come to think of it, most of my classmates are now poor alcoholics, but I have a wonderfully fabulous life!)—mike5816
Don't allow anything?? I'm interested in how you would not allow someone to be silent?
I still think it's great how all of you are fretting over this DOS, while all your kids are going to school and either laughing about it, participating in it themselves, or not even realizing it's going on. I urge you to go to any school during the DOS and I promise it won't be the 1960s anti-war protests you all apparently think it is. It really makes no difference in school whatsoever...but if it helps you pass the time until the snow melts... grumble on
Dad is great....give us the chocolate cake..
Hmmm. Good point mike5816. I think I'll have to modify the focus of my teaching to include some other things. I'm sorry that as a child you didn't have a trusted adult to help you. But my question for you is, why didn't YOU speak up anyway? I've talked with many boys that are in your same position and they give many different reasons. What would YOU say to them?
(He has a point...they do kinda smell bad.)
I will say that a couple people on this board (newsreader and sdoownek) have a serious anti-religion thing going on. Thats cool. I rail on about the Government a lot. To each their own. (Though I think government surpased religion in evilness in the 20th century)
:)
And, in proper Reader1 fashion I will end this post with a random quote that has nothing to do with the topic.
"You and your laws! The honest man doesnt need them and the criminal doesnt follow them."
I have reasons, plenty of them, and I've explained them, over and over. Whether or not you accept them is your problem.
It is not what God has done to me, but what God is currently doing to gays that is the issue here today.
I speak out against Fundamentalist Christians (or should I say "bible literalists") - the ones that ARE the killers of mankind and our freedoms.
I never claimed the world revolved around me. If it did, I wouldn't care about my fellow gay citizens, since I'm not gay.
I am very intelligent, according to every test I've ever taken and (nearly) every person I've ever known. Yet, I freely talk to anyone and never judge based on intelligence or looks alone - instead based solely upon actions and choices.
If you don't want to be construed as a religious fundamentalist, then maybe you shouldn't post religious condemnations of gays. I know you didn't quote scripture, instead you referenced a story from the bible specifically aimed at damning homosexuals. If you didn't believe it, you wouldn't have posted it. Thus, I can reasonably assume some things about you.
I live in the real world. Not in a world of magic turning sticks to snakes, burning bushes, belief in modern day human sacrifice by witches, religious abominations, INVISIBLE FRIENDS, or any thing else that can't be proven by modern science. In the real world, homosexuals are daily being bashed, ridiculed, beaten, and murdered largely due to the influence of your ancient text. In the real world, people are institutionalized for having or talking to invisible friends. So, who isn't living in the real world?
And, by the way, I haven't watched an episode of Star Trek in many, many years.
theTruth - You seriously believe that high school teenagers are in a conspiracy to promote the homosexual agenda by organizing a silent day against bullying? Would that be before or after the mass amounts of texting to each other, updating their Facebook accounts, talking on the phone, playing computer games, or even the occasional homework assignment?
Remember, there is a part in the Bible that says to love thy neighbor, too, ya know. Or...is that just a pesky little saying that gets in the way of your whole teaching the masses of hatred and intolerance thing?
Yeh but I dont think it meant "love thy neighbor" LITERALY.
Ba Da Bing.
Come on. That was a little funny.
Oh, and I agree with some of the others. Kids are like kittens. They're all cute and cuddly at first, but then they get big and smelly and you have to just tie them in a garbage bag with some rocks and throw them in the river.
OH MY GAWD..SHE SAID WHAT!!!????
hahahaha...I love stirring up the pot, too, Bikebuilder.
But if we legalize gay marriage, whats to stop a gay person from breaking into my house at night and trying to gay "marry" me?
-Steven Colbert
Lighten up folks.
sdoownek: Nope. That's sometimes true, too. I, however, already knew I was important. The kids just prove I also know how to reproduce and am probably not gay.
"Almost a quarter of black swan families are parented by homosexual couples. Male couples sometimes mate with a female just to have a baby. Once she lays the egg, they chase her away, hatch the egg, and raise a family on their own.
"Homosexuality" and "heterosexuality" are terms defined by societal boundaries, invisible in the animal kingdom. "
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15750604/
There ya go. God made all the animals. God obviously made them to act this way, unless swans and the other animals in the article are somehow repressing sexual feelings and deliberately choosing to be homosexual (as some "professionals" like to say about gay people). Therefore, logic dictates that God must not really hate homosexual behavior. Yes, folks, it's proof that it's just we humans that need yet another excuse to hate our fellow man.
Good Evening, thought I'd drop by to see how the discussion was going...
WOW 102 comments and as best as I can tell three or four different discussions here?
Discussion: what's proper in schools, I commented on that this morning, noticed a few others also.
Discussion: Homosexuality is biological. hmmm. This is just my opinion here, but we are creatures with the divine gift of free choice. THe biological purpose for sex is reproduction, and the last time I checked humans reproduced via one male and one female. Sex is enjoyable, so unlike the majority (notice I didn't say all) animals out there who engage in sex when their instincts put them in rut, or heat, or spawn... you get the idea, we have the free will to have sex when ever and with whom ever we want. So, I conclude that homosexuality is an act of free choice, and not biologically driven.
Discussion: there is/or not/ a god. This is brought up by the same posters over and over again, it's a pointless debate, I'm so not going there.
I know I saw another discussion point in here somewhere, but I seem to have lost it, and I don't want to through all those posts again.
have a good night all,
RK
Maybe you all should consider coming to church sometime. It honestly isn't that painful. Who knows, you may learn something. I can tell you this, I do everyday.
I am not a judgemental person. I just know that my job as a "believer" is to inform as many people as I can about the truth.
Even if I don't agree with you I would hate to see you perish.
As for arrogance, I am not sure where that came in. I don't hate homosexuals. But, I do hate what they do. I also know that there is hope for them...There is hope for all of us sinners : )
I like what you're saying akkid86, and how you say it.
He's right everybody.
You sound just like my kids.
I just asked my daughter (16-junior) who is in Lathrop about it. She hasn't heard about it yet.
But she laughed and said "Oh wait! I think they did that last year...no, my freshman year. It was pretty funny!"
I "recognized you" from your comment last night on the letter to the editor that started this thing.
It was so familiar. It was like one of my kid's talking.
It is true, akkid86, that I have stronger feelings about the whole thing, as shown in my own posts on the other "thread" as they say.
But when all is said and done, you are right about the effect.
And that effect is okay by me.
theTruth.
You made me laugh so hard I almost fell out of my chair. (you too candikane)
'What will you be doing this week?'
well, lets see, I'll be going to school, hanging out with my friends, doing homework, and other things that teenagers are doing during the week.
o, and.
I just...wonder how old these people are that you 'teach' these things to.
And it makes me kind of sad, if they're young, and impressionable, they aren't getting a fair chance at all. What you're doing is BRAINWASHING. the younger they are, the less logic they understand. Therefore they MUST believe everything you, as a higher standing person (no pun intended), say.
ok. and as for the day of truth, are you KIDDING ME?! how dumb can people get.
'the homosexual agenda'.
that phrase....do you really think that the entire gay community gets together and plans ways to...convert people?! because thats what you sound like.
Also, you realize when you simplify it, you're saying that people can choose their orientation, and creating a day to tell people that they should be straight or go to hell. sounds great to me.
=P
and you know, I'm sure that if I could talk to you in person, you'd just laugh at me for being a young teenage girl with such strong opinions against yours. and possibly find me ignorant. which, is NOT something I am. I might not be fully educated, but I know logic. This, a day to hate someone else for who they are, is NOT logical.
(and I know I didn't write this well, but I hope I got my point across.)
i_play_outside: Google "hypothalamus." Engaging in sexual encounters is free choice. Sexual orientation is not.
sherry29: I'm pretty sure the Bible warns against any sexual practices that cannot potentially lead to reproduction. Telling people they're sinners IS what makes church painful. How in the world can you even care about let alone hate what they do? I don't get it. I'm glad all the haters in here aren't a fly on the wall in my bedroom.
Hey, i_play_outside:
are you SERIOUS?!
ok, even if we are/were 'creatures with the divine gift of free choice', we can not pick and choose everything. we can not pick our height nor our eye color(not genetically at least), nor anything else we are born with, or at least without bringing in SCIENCE.
So the what I'm thinking is, until we find a medicine or drug that 'cures'(a horrible verb that I was hoping to avoid, because its NOT A DISEASE) homosexuality, its going to be there. and its perfectly normal. and most definitely natural.
i_play_outside says: "Discussion: there is/or not/ a god..."
And here I thought the argument was whether or not the fundamentalist Christians beliefs have caused the need for this Day Of Silence?
In case you missed them the first time, Newsreader said:
"Now, can you stop using your invisible friend to justify your hatred, violence, and murder of those that are different than you?
Thanks, the rest of humanity would appreciate it."
"It is not what God has done to me, but what God is currently doing to gays that is the issue here today."
"That's all that I've advocated - getting rid of a belief system that continues to promote the dogma of "kill gays"."
sdoownek: What was out there before God? How did something come from nothing? I want to bury myself under mountains of scientific papers.
Dogma. Heh. Buddy Christ. hahahaha!
i_play_outside: "So, I conclude that homosexuality is an act of free choice, and not biologically driven."
Well, yes and no...
It depends on whether you define homosexuality as an inclination, or as a pattern of behavior.
I think it's been pretty well established that (by and large) homosexuality as an inclination is biological and not chosen. (At least somebody in the comments above mentioned such a finding. I've heard similarly over the years, but I'm not in the mood to dig up the research.)
Homosexuality as a behavior, though, is clearly chosen -- in the same sense that HETEROsexuality as a behavior is chosen. That is, most people technically *can* abstain from romantic or sexual relations with the only people that they are attracted to.
But whether it is reasonable and right to expect them to do so is another matter. Those who would ask homosexuals to abstain from romantic relations with people of their own sex can't actually expect that they'll instead go out and form a healthy relationship with an opposite-sex partner -- no, those people are asking them to live a life of abstinence and lovelessness. That is the unreasonable part.
Whether you believe that nature made homosexuals or that God made homosexuals, you can't deny that people with those inclinations DO EXIST, by virtue of how they are made -- and it's a near-certainty that they will not change. Anyone who would condemn them to lovelessness on this is guilty of horrific dehumanization.
I_play_outside - Humans have free choice over certain traits that are biologically determined. Take a person who is introverted; they can choose to behave more like an extrovert, but how much discomfort would that cause? How sincere would it be? How necessary is it for the rest of the world that that person CHOOSE extroversion? Now imagine picking a life-partner. Would you intentionally and repeatedly engage in sexual activity and all the other lifetime events that humans experience with someone that just disgusts you physically (e.g. the same sex for you)? I wouldn't. Why should a homosexual go against their biology here? To make you more comfortable? I dun think so.
JTC - I'm almost positive that there is an image that runs through the heads of some people. I think it goes something like this: A big round table with a bunch of stereotypical effeminate gay men, and token few stereotypical butchish lesbians sitting around it sipping chardonnay (beer for the women) laughing maniacally as they plan ways to use their sexual-wiles to lure unsuspecting teenagers into their lairs - only to let them free back into the world once they've agreed to be not only gay, but a gay recruiter. I adore conspiracy theories. (I knew my buddies back in the day that were trying to steal my boyfriends were up to no good!)
Sherry29 - You and I ascribe to different Gods methinks.
Sdoownek - The beauty and order of mathematics (admittedly as I know it) and the power available in science prove to me the existence of God. I had lasik surgery on my eyes not too long ago; God was apparent (to me) in the design of my eyes and the science that made them better. (yes, yes, I know there are blind people.)
Forgive me if this has been covered already. I haven't had time to read all of the comments today.
I have a practical question. If the schools agreed with the folks who are against the Day of Silence, how would they go about stopping it?
Does everyone realize that homosexuality wasn't an issue at all until the 19th century, despite the claims of the Bible saying it's a "sin"? It was never considered a disease, mental defect, or immoral until the 1800's. Matter of fact, some of our most important movers and shakers in the world were either homosexual or bisexual. Alexander the Great and Freud come to mind. It was considered normal for men to not limit their emotional and physical attachment to just women. Women were simply for making babies, that's it. If you wanted a meaningful relationship both physically and emotionally, men paired up with other men.
The Greeks had an elite fighting force made up of nothing but homosexual men. They fought better than heterosexual men because they wouldn't run from battle for fear of not seeing wives or children. Homosexual men fought together with their mates and protected each other on the battlefield, which is why Rome conquered a good portion of the known world due to the fierceness of their warriors.
And that's the history lesson for the day. :)
What I meant to type was "us"... what was out there before us (collectively, i.e.: people, toads, rivers, rocks, amoebas, etc.)... interesting psychological faux pas, I think. The link is a subject I'm familiar with but not an expert in, however it is the most rational theory I've encountered in my independent search for "what is."
How do you define God? What are we disproving?
what's harder to believe, the word of an "invisible friend," or the ideas that were formed from the same scientific methods that 'proved' the world was flat and the Earth was the center of the Universe?
Well..time for me to leave this conversation. I've tried proving that that homosexuality isn't deviant, or even sinful according to religious interpretations...but it seems that's fallen on deaf ears. I've tried using historical, religious, and scientific arguments as proof and people will continue to believe what they want with fingers in ears as they rapidly yell "lalalalalala" at the top of their voices like children.
If some people want to continue judging others with an egotistical sense that one human being is holier or more righteous than another and, thus, can automatically declare that one lifestyle is immoral or sinful over another, then I feel bad for them. They are like those who used to proclaim the Earth was the center of the universe and all life revolved around us. They will continue to think the rest of us are unenlightened or perhaps far from God to have an opinion different than theirs, but so be it. I'd rather be damned to hell by a human being for my views than being damned to hell by God for staying silent. Night all.
sdoownek: Are you out there having a life somewhere, miss my question, or ignore it? I really do want to know your definition of God. I'm curious as to how dissimilar it is from mine.
Oh No!!
akkid86! Don't get sucked into the abyss!!
What you said up there at 5:05 was so succinct... so right on!!!
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Still waiting. Many of you think that the schools should not have allowed the Day of Silence to take place. How would you suggest that they should have done that?
Anyone?
haha I couldn't help it, but I don't know if it really counts because I wasn't stating my opinion..just a simple question...getting my feet a little wet but staying well away from the abyss I asure you
The day of silence is sponsored by the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network, not the students of West Valley. The mission of the GLSEN, as stated on their website, says that they "strives to assure that each member of every school community is valued and respected regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity/expression." If value and respect is strived for regardless of sexual orientation, why does their name and everything they sponsor reflect sexual orientation? Come on! Stand up for what you believe in and call it what it is. Great, you don't want to be bullied. No one does. But don't say it's not about homosexuality and then turn around and do the opposite. Especially in our educational system where there is no place for it.
No takers?
Obviously you have something to say Babylon. What do you think they should have done?
I belivee that the point that Babylon is making is that the way that the DOS was planned, organized, and implemented is -ENTIRELY- within the 1st Amendment protections of the Bill of Rights, as protected expression/speech, even for public schools.
There are few legal methods to stop such an action without breeching the 1st Amendment guarantees.
So, at that point, the question isn't "Do you support the DOS, or not?", but rather, "If you don't support it, how many hundreds of thousands of dollars are you willing to spend to over-turn precedents that have (solidly) defined (and protected) free speech and expression?"
And don't blame it on 'activist judges' or 'liberal judges,' as nearly the entire group currently serving on the SCOTUS was appointed by Republican and/or neo-Con Presidents. And that includes the majority who defended the bizarre notions re. 'emminent domain' a couple of years ago.
Dirk, you're ruining my fun.
sdoownek - There ya go, trying to call me dumb in a nice roundabout way for having a view you don't understand. What exactly are you assuming that I "...don't know the history of, aren't knowledgeable about, or simply don't understand?" Math? Science? An eyeball? Poor vision? Perhaps you assume that my belief in God somehow precludes me from understanding biology, evolution and history? Because I'm not an expert I can't get the general idea? No matter. Failure on your part.
No, I don't have a math degree. Nope, no hard science degree either. But here's a little heads up for you - there are scientists, mathematicians and other well-edumacated folk that believe in God. Whether you believe or not is inconsequential.
I can still see God at work in the beauty of my vision and the development of the eye (and that which I see with my eyes), the brilliance of those that developed the surgery and the talent of the doctor that performed it (I also fully appreciated the prayer he offered right before he "magically" corrected my vision with the rays of Ra).
I'm off to bed - tired here too. Can continue here, or at meetin' time.
Final thought:
"... but the summation is pretty much the fact that god doesn't exist---a fact proven by mathematics." (sdoownek)
"Your god isn't an identifiable entity or a mathematical matter, so how do you propose to go about proving that it does or does not exist?" (sdoownek)
Seems a little hard to have it both ways. God is either disprovable by mathematics, or it's "unidentifiable", "not a mathematical matter" and thus cannot be disproved by mathematics. Dilemma?
Sorry Babylon.
As a child, I even snuck into Christmas gifts way early, and peeked at them, too; re-sealing them nearly perfectly with scotch tape and an exacto blade. Then trying to muster a sense of 'surprise and awe' on Christmas morning...
I'm probably facing eternal judgement for that, as well as other misdeeds. ;^>)
I guess that I was predestined for ruining surprises, though I -have- learned to not divulge the plots of movies before the end is past..
BABYLON, that was funny.
Been pokin' around this morning...
Haven't been to "the other side" yet...
Hope everyone isn't too exhausted by now.
In recent times, the leaders of the three major religions gathered in Jerusalem to discuss the troubling issues of the day I was relieved to learn that the single most troubling issue of the day is the proliferation of homosexuality. I take my funny hat off to them.
Also, please understand the basic premise is that mankind is the supreme accomplishment of the supreme being. In all of the expanse of the universe, which is billions of light years across, yet only a few thousand years old, there is no creature more perfect and more intelligent than mankind. THAT is truly a miracle.
So kids, keep your mouth shut, lets see what the most perfect among us can do about it.
So. You are assuming that my belief in God equates and explains my understanding of the development of the universe; which means you paid little to no attention to what I have actually said a number of times.
There's more to faith than how you "understand it". For a "scientific" mind, you assume a lot.
computer glitch, hopefully this isn't a double post...
I commend Paul_Adasiak response to my comment of last eve. It was very well thought out. thank you.
RK
sdoownek, when will you consider the idea that just because someone looks at something differently than you doesn't mean they are wrong or stupid. You should ponder this. Honestly, I never got the memo that you were the new, all accepted genius of the universe! You believe something I don't, fine whatever, that is your right. To my knowledge that hasn't ever been what people harp at you for, you have other issues, as do others. Be a jerk if you want but why??? I will believe what I choose regardless, as will you.
Sdoownek, I didn't intend to imply that you forced anything. I was trying to politely hint that your rudeness & the feigned superiority you express yourself with does tend to alienate people who might otherwise really ponder what you have to say.
I often disagree with newsreader, but he grasps (occasionally) that using humor is effective to get an idea across.
Imusuallyright: Hello! ;)
Sdoonwek: Hello to you, too. I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you or picking on you. It is, however, in my opinion very bold to presume oneself supremely intelligent, i.e.: smart enough to equal and dissect the mind of “a god” and presumptuous to assume that because one cannot deduce it, it is necessarily false.
L1. Logic presupposes that its principles are necessarily true.
[Well, it is “logic” so sure.]
L2. According to most religions, a god created everything, including logic; or at least everything, including logic, is dependent on a god.
[Why dependant? Wouldn’t we have to have a God proof? This sounds like an assumption and I question the validity of the premise. Are we gaining this proof from organized religion? Paradox? I created my children yet they are not fully dependant on me. Coexisting with me as I believe in linear time only as it applies to human perception and the cyclical nature of creation, but coexistence doesn’t immediately require dependence.]
L3. If something is created by or is dependent on a god, it is not necessary — it is contingent on a god.
[Not necessary? Contingent? This assigns ultimate value to human perception and the presumption that God has an immediate interest in His creation. It also assumes that God is innately separate from his creations. Where’s the God proof, again, for that?]
L4. If principles of logic are contingent on a god, they are not logically necessary.
[My appendix is not logically necessary, does that mean I don’t exist?]
L5. If principles of logic are contingent on a god, it could arrange matters so that a proposition and its negation were true at the same time, but this is absurd.
[Absolute numbers, anyone? |logic| + |-logic| = God? We see this duality in just about every entity and it is evident in the most difficult to perceive. Chaos and logic coexist all the time, e.g.: Sexual relations lead to reproduction which leads to the birth of a child who’s genetic make-up is predetermined by his/her parents and also the particular egg and particular sperm that co-create the zygote. Logic = process. Chaos = the chance involved, the egg, sperm, and ovulation cycle, and the health of the mother host that create a unique, although genetically predetermined child.]
L6. Hence logic is not dependent on a god, and, insofar as the world view assumes that logic so dependent, it is false.
[Still false?]
sdoonwek: Keep posting. I dunno if I would want to be friends, but I do know that what you post makes me think and I value that.
This sentence is false.
After spending too much time reading here and impatiently bouncing in my chair for my chance to comment. I think we now need a Moment Of Silence. We can call it gamorrahphy.
Reader1: ;P
sdoownek: I will look at it.
mike, that was good!
sdoownek: I'm really not sure what to tell you here. I think there is proof of God available to me that is not available to you because I have shown faith and you have not. My proof cannot be your proof because it is transmitted to me directly and cannot be studied by science. Being that my perceptions and experiences, although real, are not logical absolutes and are instead subjectively true, they will never be true for you. You can't get it until you're willing to concede that there is possibly Someone out there and actively seek It. I challenge you to assess the faith of people you trust and respect and begin to ask questions there. Absorb it, ponder on it, and test it. If I'm wrong, you're right and nothing changes. If I'm right, you gain additional insight into some of the magic out there and potentially improve your relationships and quality of life. Either way, it's a win/win for you. As newsreader kindly informed me, I am probably a Deist at this stage in my spiritual evolution. I was an atheist until I was brave enough to venture into the dark and take this challenge myself.
I guess what I'm saying is I know TANG to be false so the argument, to me, is irrelevant. At its best, it is theoretical and fails to prove that God does not exist.
(This comment was removed by the Newsminer.com staff. Please see our User Agreement for further information.)
Pbrown said:
"I am not for gay rights nor am I
against their right to exist but the
matter at hand is "does one single
group of people get to tell the rest
of the society what to do". I say No,
so lets do what the Alaskan Family
Council said but boycott the school
for three days."
Ummm ... you're kidding right?
You've just contradicted yourself.
"does one single group of people get
to tell the rest of the society what
to do". I say No ... "
Versus,
"so lets do what the Alaskan Family
Council said but boycott the school
for three days."
If only a boycott by the Alaskan Family Council could be a permanent situation - rather than a temporary one.
To get back to the "Day of Silence" which this article was addressing, “The Day of Silence is about safer schools, tolerance and positive change.” Another upcoming event which might be of interest to those interested in the "Day of Silence" is the FREE - Dismantling the Culture of Silence! - event being held at the Wood Center Carol Brown Ballroom, Saturday, April 26, 2008 at 7 p.m.
AquaMoon, a feminist hip-hop writing, performance, and artistic team are flying in from Chicago to present their Dismantling the Culture of Silence! Performance + Q & A.
Some background on AquaMoon: AquaMoon bridges the gap between the streets, hip hop feminism, performance activism, and academia. They are a voice for disenfranchised womyn and youth until the time these womyn and youth are empowered to assert themselves and use their own voice.
AquaMoon works with educational and community-based organizations to effect social change that will result in greater equality, freedom, and fuller lives for womyn and youth. They provide students with opportunities to actively express their voice in school, university, community, and business organizations focused on serving womyn and youth.
AquaMoon's visit to Fairbanks seems to bookend and contribute meaningfully to the "Day of Silence" discussions going on here.
Hope to see you at the performance!
For a sneak preview you can hear AquaMoon on Chicago Public Radio - http://www.chicagopublicradio.org/Conten...
I don't believe you want to spew hate or promote prejudice, but that is what some of you are doing, and it causes despair and dehumanization to those who fall under your categorization of what is normal and right.
Please consider your words and research before you speak because a Cameron might be listening.
I was called Blaine in school and it was the name I was abused under. I hated it because it sounded so gayish. I lived in the woods, during summer, from 4th to 8th grade because it was my safe place. I am a gay Christian who, for years could not accept myself.
Since then I have prevented several gay Christians youth from taking their life.
A boy of 16 was going to jump off a cliff.
A youth of 15 tried to hang himself and later slit his throat. He lived, only to be sent to another reparative therapy camp to cure him of his homosexuality.
A girl of 17 tried to burn herself to death.
A boy of 12 was going to kill himself because he could no longer stand the ridicule and beatings at school.
A youth of 14 cried on my shoulder because he was so hurt by the teasing and beatings he got, while no teacher ever seemed to be around when it happened.
A straight middle school youth, his sister is gay, was told by his teacher in front of his entire class, " You must be gay like your sister". The teacher said this because the boy was wearing an earring.
A mother told her son, of 15 or 16, who just came out to her, "I hope you go to prison and get raped".
Another High School youth laid under his bedroom sheets for two weeks, with his dad's loaded shotgun in his mouth because of the ridicule and betrayal of his "best" friend at school, who revealed he was gay, when in fact he was not sure of his sexual orientation at that time.
The son of a fundamentalist preacher, who accidentally came out at age 13 in an argument, tried to make his son straight. Of course it was his dad's duty to ask the church to pray for him.
This youth who used to be happy and go-lucky is now on anti depressants.
I could go on, but I am too numb about the shooting of a youth named 15 year old Lawrence, who was gay, by his 14 year old classmate. Children are not born evil, but they have to be taught to hate. The blood of Lawrence is on the hands of all those who rail against gays. Two young lives have been destroyed because we teach hate, unfortunately too many under the justification of religion, God and the Bible.
Then there is the story of Cameron, of England, a 10 year old youth who hanged himself because he felt so alone and ridiculed. He hanged himself with his own belt. Why the sense of hopelessness? Because he wanted to be a girl.
And now the murder of Ms. Stewart, a threat to no one and a friend to many-but she was transgendered.
Oh, what the hell, I guess the death of just another faggot is good for a civilized, one nation under God, society.
I wonder what Cameron was thinking about before he grasped his last breath?
Sincerely,
Nelson Smith
Aurorarainbow: Do you seriously believe the DOS is about "safer schools"? That's rediculous! The DOS is a way for gays to impose their lifestyle on people who do not wish to participate. Without this imposition gay people will still exist and they will continue to recruit weak-minded folks looking for an "easy fix" for problems in their lives. Name calling and bullying against many, not just gays, will continue to exist after your little day-of-pitty. Safer schools are attained through parents teaching their kids right from wrong at an early age, staying involved with their children throughout grade school, setting boundaries/rules (curfew, extra curriculars, etc..) and addressing substandard behavior accordingly. If the Day of Pitty forces parents to keep their kids then it has already disrupted school and should not be allowed!
Sloopy: Your stories are hardly ammo for the day of silence. Sounds more like a good basis for a day of coping skills. Their are many youth, and adults for that matter, who, for whatever reasons, decide to take their own life and that is sad.
On a better note, thank you, Superman of Gay people, for saving the lives of those young adults and giving them a chance to live their lives to the fullest!
sloopy312: Who exactly are you talking to?
Nelson your comments are truly concerning --
Although this maybe a small town with minimized ideas on how life is or how life should be there is a much larger society beyond the borders of Fairbanks and Alaska who do not entertain or act upon ridicule, hate, violence, prejudices, or discriminatory “phrases, words, or ideations expressed here today or any other day”. There are places that are validating, safe and welcoming.
Please try to remember that words are made up of meanings – and the ability to attach or change meanings to any word is a matter of freedom and choice.
Many activists who write books and articles have a wealth of knowledge about being gay. Experiences that are portrayed as positive – "regardless of what others might say”
Words that were offered to me years ago – If you wish to change something change it and if you wish to find something seek it out… learn about the history, language, and culture from a different point of view but there are many wonderful ways to live as you are -- nothing more or nothing less.
I am not dismissing what you have to say because I know that it is true and it is all the more reason to search for something better because its there too.
MDM ~ Safe Zone Advocate
My gay agenda today:
- go to work
- have lunch with my husband
- grocery shopping
- presentation on community response to violence
- dinner
- movie (?)
Ooo. Scary gay agenda!
DOS was celebrated by myself and other students in FNSBSD in the early 90's. My little sister (straight identified) took a stance against violence perpetuated by homophobia when she was in high school in NP in the late 90's.
Reason for the history lesson? It's taken close to a decade for the media to begin bringing awareness to DOS. If that doesn't show that we live in a society that is rife with the desire to exert power and control over those with fewer privileges, I don't know what does.
Kudos, again, to these students for planning a DOS and for the administration in supporting them.
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